Welcome back to the read-along post for discussion of this week’s preview chapters of Rhythm of War! Alice and I are so excited to dig into this week’s material, and we’re so happy to have you along for the ride.
If this is your first time joining us, in the article we’ll bring up any relevant plot points or character progression notes that we feel are worthy of discussion, as well as putting in some reminders to things that you may have forgotten from previous books (or things you may never have picked up on to begin with, like the existence of the Aimians, which is pretty subtle and Easter-egg-y). Remember that the comments section is available to you for any comments you have on the chapters for this week, for everything from simple squee-ing over how much you liked something to in-depth theory-crafting. Just be respectful of others’ opinions and have fun!
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entirety of the series up until now—if you haven’t read ALL of the published entries of the Stormlight Archive, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Shallan/Kaladin
WHERE: The Shattered Plains/Hearthstone
WHEN: RoW Day 1 (The same day as the previous chapters. Let’s just go with approximate RoW days for the timeline, okay?)
Radiant/Veil/Shallan are taken to be initiated into the secret society of the Sons of Honor, but they decide that their plans have to be accelerated when the Sons let on that they have a spy in Dalinar’s inner circle. Unfortunately, Adolin misinterprets what’s happening and his men swoop in to “save” Shallan just as she’s finally about to be brought to Ialai.
Kaladin and the other Windrunners engage in combat with Leshwi and her Fused over Hearthstone. Kaladin fights a one-on-one battle with Leshwi, with his squad members one by one checking on him to make sure he’s all right. He’s been suffering from nightmares and not sleeping, and it seems as though those closest to him are starting to take notice. The creepy-red-light-teleporting-Fused shows up again, but only briefly… then Roshone mentions that some prisoners are being held in the mansion, and he and Godeke the Edgedancer head off to rescue them.
Overall Reactions
She’s intrigued by the airship, Kaladin thought, following. She likely wants to gather as much information about it as she can. In Jasnah’s interviews with the two Heralds—who had lived thousands of years—it had come out that they too were amazed by this creation. As incredible as it seemed, modern artifabrians had discovered things that even the Heralds hadn’t known.
A: I have to say how much fun it is to see the ancient ones—both the Heralds and the Fused—having their socks knocked off by the creativity of the modern Rosharans. Thank you, Taln, for giving them time!
L: Yeah, this is incredibly cool. I always like seeing how technological advancements in fantasy books happen in regards to magic systems, and Sanderson is an absolute master of this. ::looks sideways at Mistborn era two::
“We already know,” the man said, chuckling. “We have a source far closer to [Dalinar Kholin] than you.”
L: Oooooooooh! Now here’s a fantastic hook!
A: Granted that they don’t know who Shallan is, it’s disconcerting that they think they have someone close to Dalinar, and Shallan has no clue who it might be!
A: Other than that, my general reaction is amusement at Shallan’s spying, and a big Wheeee! for Kaladin fighting in the air again. This suits him so much better than skulking around pretending to be a refugee. It’s a little concerning, though, to see how worried the Windrunners are, always checking on him. It would appear that something has been developing recently, and it doesn’t look good.
L: Yeah, Kaladin’s so much more at home in the air. It’s always nice to see him soaring.
Humans
The Windrunners rose around Kaladin in a defensive spread. They hung in the air like no skyeel ever could: motionless, equidistant.
Below, refugees stopped—despite the chaos of the evacuation—to stare up through the awespren at the sentinels in blue. There was something natural about the way Windrunners swooped and banked, but it was another matter altogether to be confronted by the surreal sight of a squad of soldiers hanging in the sky as if on wires.
A: Oh, what a mental image! And it’s funny, but until this scene, I never really thought about what this would look like. Awe-inspiring indeed!
L: The thing about the wires reminds me of Kung Fu movies, and that’s absolutely how I see the Windrunners movement! That and stage productions of Peter Pan, when you see Peter just hanging there in mid-air.
“The town’s new leaders keep prisoners in the manor’s stormcellar, Brightlord,” Roshone was saying, pointing at his former dwelling. “There are currently only two people there, but it would be a crime to abandon them.”
“Agreed,” Dalinar said. “I’ll send one of the Edgedancers to free them.”
“I will accompany them,” Roshone said, “with your permission. I know the layout of the building.”
A: I wonder what made Roshone step up and take active responsibility, as he seems to have done. He’s a very different man than the one we saw in the beginning of Oathbringer, much less the vicious rat he was in The Way of Kings. Maybe it was as simple as unequivocally losing all his privilege, and needing to prove to himself that there was a way to actually be a leader anyway.
Buy the Book
Rhythm of War
L: Amazing what a little perspective in regards to your privilege will do to change your world view.
A: Right? It’s actually kind of a beautiful thing. Up until now, he claimed his position by right of dahn and nothing else, but when the fit hit the shan, both Roshone and Laral—even in positions of servitude—became much better leaders for their people than they’d ever been. (Well, Laral was fairly solid already in terms of seeing the responsibility as well as the privilege, but Roshone is improved beyond measure. That Sanderson, creating redemption arcs for people and making me believe them!!)
L: …I still don’t want one for Moash though.
A: #noredemption
Singers/Fused
They’d learned much about the Fused from the Herald Ash. Each of those Heavenly Ones was an ancient entity; ordinary singers had been sacrificed, giving up their bodies and lives to host a Fused soul.
A: I’m going to assume from here on out that anything we learn about the Fused, and which Our Heroes have no other logical way of learning, will be information gleaned from Ash. It’s a good way to explain a lot of knowledge!
Also, in case you aren’t tired of hearing me hate on it, that whole thing about ordinary singers giving up their bodies to host a Fused soul still gives me the creeps.
L: Mmhmm, that’ll never not be creepy. At least they do seem to have to give consent, but even so…
Yes, this was Leshwi. A leader among the Fused—high enough that the others deferred to her, but not so high that she stayed behind during fights. A status similar to Kaladin’s own.
A: So here’s Leshwi again. We met her back in Oathbringer; she’s the one Moash killed when he was travelling with Graves & Co. Later, she’s in Kholinar, where she frees Moash, and later takes him to Hnanan for the assignment of killing Jezrien. Afterwards, she’s the one who gives him Jezrien’s Honorblade and the name Vyre. (Keep in mind, of course, that Kaladin doesn’t know any of that.)
L: Obligatory f*** Moash, since I haven’t yet in this series of articles.
In small-scale skirmishes, the Heavenly Ones preferred to wait for opportunities to fight one-on-one, instead of doubling up on enemies. It wasn’t always so—Kaladin had twice been forced to fight multiples at once—but the more Kaladin fought these creatures, the more he respected their ways. He hadn’t expected to find honor among the enemy.
L: Honestly I hadn’t expected this either, so it’s nice to see.
A: It’s almost like a formal contest rather than an actual war. I wonder if it was that way in the past—or rather, for how long it was that way, because it has to be a carryover.
… the Heavenly Ones were ancient, practiced, and cunning. They had trained for millennia with their powers, and they could fly forever without running out of Voidlight. They only drained it to heal, and—he’d heard—to perform the occasional rare Lashing.
A: I’m sure this has been noted before, but do you suppose it’s safe to assume that the reason the Fused can hold Voidlight so perfectly is that they store it in their gemhearts instead of their bodies?
L: That seems to scan for me, but here’s my question: if that’s true, that would mean that their gemhearts are perfect gems, right? So why isn’t there a huge cache of these lying around? Perfect gems are exceedingly rare. I know that the Parsh/Singers/Listeners/etc were always very particular about how their corpses were dealt with (namely, that they weren’t to be touched) but doesn’t that mean that there should be perfect gemstones lying around all over the place on the Shattered Plains, from corpses that have decayed and left them behind? Even the parshmen/women, before they were awakened, would have left these behind, were this true.
A: Yeah, that’s a snag in the logic, because I cannot imagine humans losing that particular bit of knowledge and not taking advantage of it. I’m not sure of anything here, so let’s hold these theories loosely. Is it possible that Voidlight is just easier to contain than Stormlight? That could be another reason. Readers, what are your interpretations of this? What do you think is going on?
Leshwi’s spear was lined with a silvery metal that resisted Shardblade cuts. More importantly, it was set with a gemstone at its base. If the weapon struck Kaladin, that gemstone would suck away Kaladin’s Stormlight and render him unable to heal—a potentially deadly tool against a Radiant, even one infused by Dalinar’s perpendicularity.
L: Silvery material = aluminum, right?
A: I wish I knew! I’ve generally assumed any reference to a silvery metal meant aluminum, but several recent discussions have made me less confident of that. So I don’t know whether it’s aluminum, or a god-metal we haven’t identified yet. Or something else.
L: That gemstone sucking away Stormlight is a pretty terrifying weapon. I wonder who invented this. Was this an invention from the old days, or do the Fused have fabrial technicians of their own?
A: Good question. We haven’t seen enough from their perspective yet!! Maybe we’ll learn more when we get a Venli POV; those are supposed to be forthcoming in this book. That ability certainly is frightening.
The enemy started humming one of the Fused songs, gritting his teeth as he tried to spear Kaladin.
They saw Kaladin as a challenge, a test. Leshwi always got to fight Kaladin first, but if he disengaged or defeated her, another was always waiting.
A: More of that contest mentality, but what I really loved about this was the Fused humming one of the Rhythms. Kaladin notes this several times throughout this battle, in fact. I know, it’s just Brandon being consistent, but I love these little details. Also, it’s a strong reminder (at least for me) that, Fused or no, these are people, not just enemies. There he goes with the sympathetic opponent again.
He’s out anyway, Kaladin thought as the creature’s arm flopped down at his side, useless and dead from a Shardspear cut. What good is another death?
Kaladin lowered his spear, then gestured to the side. “Go,” he said. Some of them understood Alethi.
The Fused hummed a different tone, then raised his broken spear to Kaladin—holding it in his off hand. The Heavenly One dropped the weapon toward the rocks below.
A: I don’t know why, but I love this little scene. They’ve wordlessly agreed that they don’t have to fight to the death every time.
L: Yeah, this is really nice. And it makes a lot of sense from Kaladin’s point of view. Every time they kill another Fused, that Fused won’t die… but some Singer will, to give over their body to the Fused in question. I’m not sure if Kaladin’s thought that through far enough, but it wouldn’t surprise me if he had.
Relationships & Romances
So she’d have to keep working on this—and they’d therefore also have to find more ways to sneak Adolin out to spend time with Shallan. The girl wilted if not given proper loving attention.
L: This makes me really happy to see. I’ve often been a voice of criticism of Sanderson’s handling of romance in his various books, so seeing characters actively admitting that they need some attention like this is, to me, a sign of growth.
A: I do love it. It’s interesting to have it framed in Veil’s perspective; she recognizes Shallan’s need (yay!) but at the same time manages to sneer about it.
Lyn came swooping in, wearing a brilliant blue Alethi uniform, Stormlight puffing from her lips as she spoke. She wore her long dark hair in a tight braid, and carried a functional—but ordinary—lance under her arm. “You all right?”
“I’m fine,” he said.
“You sure?” she said. “You seem distracted. I don’t want anyone stabbing you in the back.”
“Now you care?” he snapped.
“Of course I do,” she said. “Not wanting us to be more doesn’t mean I stopped caring.”
He glanced at her, then had to turn away because he could see genuine concern in her face. Their relationship hadn’t been right. He knew that as well as she did, and the pain he felt wasn’t for the end of that. Not specifically.
A: Hi, Lyn! I needed to include this for a couple of reasons. One, we don’t know whether she’s still a squire, or whether she just hasn’t reached the third Ideal yet, but she doesn’t have a Shardblade. It seems likely that, as with Kara earlier, she may be waiting for a spren to bond. But what I really wanted here was to point out that Lyn was (at least in my interpretation) clear-headed enough to know that the relationship—even with Stormblessed—wasn’t good for either of them. She clearly still cares about him, both as her commander and as a person, but as a ship, it wasn’t the right thing. And he knows it, too. (Now if Syl and Hesina could understand that…)
L: Even though he knows it wasn’t right, he’s still being a little snippy about it, which I actually really like. How many of us are 100% mature and level-headed when it comes to break-ups, even ones where we know that it’s for the best? I like these little reminders that, hey. Kaladin’s still pretty young and inexperienced. He’s, what? 20 in this book? That’s still incredibly young, and while he’s gone through a lot of experiences that have matured him, there are still a lot of areas in which he’s learning and making mistakes as he fumbles his way through life. As do we all.
Bruised & Broken
Radiant didn’t like sneaking about or pretending, but she trusted that Veil and Shallan knew what they were doing. She instead did her part: judging the danger of the current situation.
A: I’m half tempted to put this in Relationships, because… wow, Shallan has a weird intra-self relationship going on here. I often say things like “well, part of me wants to do this thing, and part of me wants to do that”—but with Shallan, it’s terribly, frighteningly different parts of her that are wanting to do the different things. The way each of them has a separate thought process, distinct priorities, and different ways of dealing with the situation—this all combines to remind me that Shallan is one broken girl, and her current state is very worrying.
L: I agree, but at least they’re working together well in this book so far! That’s…. Sort of good, right?
Veil stepped back, letting Shallan take over. Radiant could fight, and Veil could lie. But when they needed a problem solved quickly, it was Shallan’s turn.
A: Well, at least they all realize that Shallan is necessary…
L: Yes, that bodes well. I hope.
“I’ll pass the word,” Teft told Kaladin, but seemed hesitant about him. “You sure you’re well, lad?”
“I’d be better if you’d stop asking.”
“Right, then.” Teft shot into the sky.
Kaladin dusted himself off, eyeing Syl. First Lopen, then Teft, acting like he was fragile. Had Syl told the others to keep watch over him? Just because he was feeling a tad tired lately?
L: It’s never a good sign when your friends are noticing that there’s something off about your emotional wellbeing before you’re willing to admit it…
A part of him wondered if this was why he was so tired lately. Even little skirmishes were a slog, never giving him a break.
A deeper part of him knew that wasn’t the reason at all.
L: Well. At least he recognizes it, even if it is deep down.
“The others keep checking on me,” Kaladin said to her, “like I’m some delicate piece of glasswork ready to fall off the shelf at any moment and break. Is that your doing?”
…
“I didn’t say anything to them,” she told him. “I know how anxious the nightmares make you. It would be worse if I told anyone about them.”
A: This is heartbreaking. All through this chapter (and the previous ones) there is an oppressive weight of “something wrong” building. Nightmares, sleeplessness, exhaustion… Is it depression, or is there a magical component to it? I know depression can be absolutely debilitating, and in itself could be a perfectly adequate reason for everything he’s feeling. At the same time, I can’t help wondering about outside influences—Odium, or the Unmade—that might be exacerbating it. Lyn, do you have any thoughts on that?
L: I don’t think there’s anything supernatural happening here at all. We have plenty of evidence in the text to point to the fact that he’s got damn good reason for his depression and his PTSD. Sometimes, a chicken is just a chicken.
Weighty Words / The Knights Radiant
“See,” the woman said, looking to one of her companions. “If she’d been a Radiant, she couldn’t have sworn a false oath.”
Oh, you sweet soft breeze, Veil thought. Bless you for being so naive. We’re not all Bondsmiths or their ilk. The Windrunners or Skybreakers might have had trouble being so glib with a broken promise, but Shallan’s order was founded on the idea that all people lied, especially to themselves.
A: Oh, the danger of assumptions! Not that you want people to get into the habit of mistrusting anything Radiants say, but where did they get that idea, anyway? I wonder… If Dalinar’s memoir was blunt about his past, would that have made people think that all Radiants were bound to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
L: Well, history seems to have painted them that way. Rose tinted glasses, and all that. Or… wait a second. Now that I think about it, people really didn’t seem to think kindly of the Knights Radiant before they started returning, did they? That was way back in Way of Kings, and it’s hard to remember that far back, with all the changes in Roshar that have happened since!
A: History seems to have a deeply mixed-up view, honestly. The Recreance and the Heirocracy painted the Radiants in a bad light, but that’s been changing dramatically as people decided that magic-wielding soldiers are a pretty good thing when you’re fighting legends. And there are older stories, of course, where the Radiants weren’t traitors and all that. I almost wonder if the rebound has ordinary people idealizing them, now. And of course, the SoH want to see Radiants as perfect, because it fits their agenda.
L: It’s almost like societal views on history are deeply nuanced and constantly changing. Weird. ::wink::
A: Could it be?? Heh. As an aside… Before anyone complains about “sweet soft breeze” being a ripoff from Game of Thrones, let me point out that GRRM did not, in fact, coin the phrase “sweet summer child.” This has been a way of describing an innocent, naive person since the 1840s, and was very popular during the Victorian period.
L: Today I learned!
Almost all of the surviving original members of Bridge Four had bonded a spren by now, as had many of the second wave—those who had joined him soon after he had moved to Dalinar’s camp. Even some of the third wave—those who had joined the Windrunners after moving to Urithiru—had found a spren to bond.
There, unfortunately, progress stopped. Kaladin had lines of men and women ready to advance and say the oaths, but there weren’t willing honorspren to be found.
A: So the honorspren as a family don’t seem to have agreed with Syl’s choice after all. Some, but not enough to fight the entire array of Fused.
L: That’s assuming that there are enough Honorspren. We don’t really have any idea how many of them there are, do we? We know that there’s a city of them, but we have no way of knowing how well populated it is. In Oathbringer Syl spoke about the fact that it’s rare for new spren to be born, and we know that a lot were dead-eyed after the Recreance. For all we know, maybe they’ve just run out of available living Honorspren!
A: I could well be making unfounded assumptions. With the ship they sailed on in Shadesmar and the way other spren talked about them, I had the impression that there were a lot more than we’ve seen here. Impressions aren’t proof, though, so… dunno? There might only be a handful still resisting the idea of bond—or there might be other reasons, such as Fused attacking their ships and suchlike, that they aren’t available.
L: Fair enough. We just can’t know for certain!
A: Just for clarification… First wave = Bridge Four, The Way of Kings. Second wave = other bridge crews plus some of the Cobalt Guard, right? Basically anyone who served under Kaladin’s leadership during Words of Radiance. Third wave = anyone who joined them during Oathbringer, including a bunch of scouts as well as soldiers. So… who do we have? Lopen and Drehy have clearly joined Kaladin and Teft in the third Ideal; we’ll have to watch for more. Leyten and Skar are here, but it’s not clear what level they’re at. Kara is identified as one who doesn’t have a spren yet, though Kaladin is sure she’d be at the third Ideal if only there were spren available to bond.
A wave of power surged through the battlefield, causing Windrunners to burst alight. Dalinar had fully opened a perpendicularity, becoming a reservoir of Stormlight that would instantly renew any Radiant who drew near. It was a powerful edge, and one of the reasons they continued to risk bringing the Bondsmith on missions.
A: As noted on a previous chapter, Dalinar has gotten way better with this than he was at the end of Oathbringer.
Her recklessness almost cost her as she buzzed a group under the protection of Godeke the Edgedancer.
A: Tai’Shar Godeke! (Excuse me, I’m busy crying over here.)
L: I got you, Alice. For those who never had the pleasure, Steve Godecke was a Sanderson beta reader and a frequent attendee of JordanCon. In the paraphrased words of fellow beta and sometimes contributor here Ross Newberry (who knew Steve far better than I), he was a wonderful and kind soul and dealt with massive health problems in a serene and uplifting way, with unshakable faith. Even when his disability got in the way of communication (he had a trach tube), he soldiered on, did his best, enjoyed his friends, and gave what he could to others. It’s lovely to see him memorialized this way.
A: So perfect. He was a great example of the First Ideal in many ways. Brandon offered to tell Steve the whole plot of the SA, but he declined; he said that the joy was in the reading. Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination.
L: ::sniffles::
A: Excuse me while I wipe the tears off my keyboard again. He was—is—an inspiration.
“Squires beneath rank CP4, you drop to the ground and guard the civilians—don’t pick a fight with a Fused unless they come at you first.
L: I just want to note that this is an interesting ranking system, and I hope we find out more about what it means at some point.
A: Indeed! It’s great that they came up with a way to designate who does what—but I want to know who and what… :D
When Rock saw Kaladin gesturing, the large Horneater snatched a spear from a pile placed there and Lashed it into the air.
L: Cool to see Rock using squire powers here!
Windspren darted from the sky and fell in beside him as he curved in a gut-wrenching turn,
L: Here we go again with the windspren gathering around him. The theory is that eventually they’re going to wind up forming Shardplate, if only Kaladin could swear that darn next Ideal!
A: Right‽ I’m dying to see the Plate form for reals, right there on the page.
Red was the first one they’d embedded into the Sons of Honor, but his persona—that of a darkeyed workman—hadn’t been important enough to get any real access.
A: And there we have our first confirmed Lightweaver squire-turned-Radiant. At least, I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t have tried embedding him if he couldn’t maintain the illusion with his own powers instead of needing Shallan close by, right?
Secret Societies
They suspected Ialai had taken over the cult, now that Amaram was dead. Her faction was planning to seize the Oathgate at the center of the Shattered Plains. Unfortunately, Radiant didn’t have proof of these facts, and she would not move against Ialai without solid proof. Dalinar agreed with her, particularly after what Adolin had done to Ialai’s husband.
Too bad he didn’t find a way to finish off the pair of them, Veil thought.
That would not have been right, Radiant thought back. Ialai was no threat to him then.
Shallan didn’t agree, and naturally Veil didn’t either, so Radiant let the matter drop.
A: Aside from more of Shallan’s personalities arguing with each other, and the fact that Shallan didn’t have much chance to know Ialai, I keep wondering why Dalinar didn’t recognize the threat Ialai posed. We saw in his flashbacks that he knew her for a manipulative and very clever schemer. Sure, he feels guilty about his son killing her husband, but it seems like he ought to be more concerned. Then again, I guess Shallan is here looking for proof, and they’re right not to do too much without proof, so… maybe? But I don’t trust any organization that involves Ialai Sadeas.
L: To be fair, he knew what a snake Torol Sadeas was too. Even after he abandoned them to die in Way of Kings Dalinar never took direct action against him. This is par for the course, for Dalinar.
A: The Sons of Honor, though… have they always been this overdramatic?
L: I don’t know but I hope so. I love it.
A group of people in black robes stood around her, each holding a brightly shining diamond broam in one palm. She blinked at the sharp light. Their hoods looked a fair bit more comfortable than her sack. Each robe was embroidered with the Double Eye of the Almighty, and Shallan had a fleeting thought, wondering at the seamstress they’d hired to do all this work. What had they told her? “Yes, we want twenty identical, mysterious robes, sewn with ancient arcane symbols. They’re for… parties.”
A: LOL. If there were a release party, it would be hilarious for a whole group to show up in these outfits.
L: Don’t give me ideas, Alice. For… you know. Eventual real-world-gatherings, when they someday happen again.
Veil gazed up with wonder and confusion, then shied back against the chasm wall, startling a cremling with dark purple colorings.
A: Oh, hello there, friend Sleepless. How are you?
L: A reminder for anyone who may be scratching their heads thinking, what? Read this page on the Coppermind.
A: Heh. I find it … interesting, that the Sleepless are apparently investigating the Sons of Honor. Or are they following Shallan? Either way, here they are.
“We guided the return of the Radiants,” the man said. “Have you wondered why they appeared? Why all of this—the Everstorm, the awakening of the parshmen—is happening? We orchestrated it. We are the grand architects of the future of Roshar.”
A: Well, if you’re going to have delusions, you might as well go for the really satisfying ones! (Also, please note that this is the source of the title for chapter 4.) Fortunately for my sanity, Veil clarifies what the reader has been thinking all along…
Mraize had explained about this group and their efforts to bring back the Heralds—who had actually never been gone. Gavilar had led them along, used their resources—and their hearts—to further his own goals. During that time, they’d briefly been important movers in the world.
A: Speaking of secret societies, there’s Mr. Ghostblood rearing his ugly head. He seems to have been telling the truth, though. Come to think of it, he mostly does tell the truth… just not all of it, and often phrased in misleading ways.
But back to the Sons of Honor and their delusions…
“We serve the rightful queen of Alethkar,” the woman finally said.
“Ialai?” Veil breathed. “Is she here?”
A: Seriously? In what firemoss hallucination is Ialai the “rightful queen” of anything? I could see Navani, as Gavilar’s widow, and obviously Jasnah as Gavilar’s daughter and Elhokar’s sister, but how in the storms does Ialai come into any kind of succession? She doesn’t even have the Kholin’s “right of conquest” to claim. Bizarre.
L: I guess if they don’t believe in succession by birthright, and rather by some other metric like intellect or something, this could make sense. They’ve only been a unified country since Gavilar anyway, so we’ve only had one generation to establish rule by succession.
A: I’ll totally agree that birthright isn’t necessarily a good way to choose a good leader. For that matter, I’m not all that fond of conquest-right, either. I’m just baffled by that “rightful queen” thing, because there’s no logic by which she can make that claim.
“Rise, Daughter of Honor,” the man said.
L: You know, I never really thought about the significance of this wording until just now, seeing it like this. I know, “Sons of Honor” has been the title all along, but the Stormfather calls Kaladin a son of Honor all the time, doesn’t he? I wonder if there’s more to this name in the case of this secret society than we’re getting. Have they appropriated a more ancient, meaningful title than they know?
A: It could well be. The Stormfather applies that title to both Kaladin and Dalinar, and the Nightwatcher uses it for Dalinar a couple of times. (Then again, she also calls him “Son of Odium…”) Is it possible that the Radiants were all called sons/daughters of Honor at one time, and there’s just enough legend left that these goons appropriated it?
Veil steeled herself as a cultist snatched away her notebook, probably to try applying charcoal to the other pages, which would of course do nothing.
A: Without quoting the extended passage, these people are so gullible. They must drive Ialai nuts sometimes; she was always more clever—and more suspicious—than this. An Illusion-breaker fabrial? It’s intricate and expensive; must be for real. Random tradeswoman claims access to Navani’s schematics? Oh, cool! Must be for real! (Okay, I’ll admit we know a lot more than they do, and Shallan’s lightweavings are convincing, but she plays these people so easily.)
What We Missed (In the Timeskip)
Would Leshwi be among them? He hoped she would, as they needed a rematch. He wasn’t certain he’d be able to recognize her, as she’d died last time. He couldn’t claim credit; Rock’s daughter Cord had done the deed with a wellplaced arrow from her Shardbow.
A: Welp. In the timeskip, Rock’s daughter has acquired a Shardbow. Does that imply that she has also acquired Shardplate to enable her to draw it? So far as we know, the only person who’s ever drawn one without Plate is Rock; maybe it’s unfair, but I tend to doubt Cord is as strong as her father.
L: I can’t wait to find out more about this, because it seems like Cord’s become a certifiable badass and I am here for it. There’s also this:
He waved to his older children—including Cord, who carried Amaram’s old Shardbow strapped to her back and wore the full set of Shardplate she’d found in Aimia.
L: She’d found in AIMIA? What?! I can’t wait to get this story.
A: TELL ME NOW!!! (Okay, I forgot it was in this chapter that we learned where she got it. Oops.) So casually dropped in there, though, that Rock’s daughter “found” a set of Shardplate.
Kaladin had some three hundred Windrunners at this point—though only around fifty full knights.
A: THREE HUNDRED WINDRUNNERS. Well, we definitely missed that little growth spurt during the skip! Of course, many of them are squires, but that’s still quite the force. Squires and second-Ideal bonded Radiants might not have their Shardblades yet, but they can still fly. That’s got to be very reassuring when you’re on a flying ship and need protection.
L: This is so, so cool. I don’t blame people for flocking to the Windrunners, either. Kaladin’s a born leader and inspires so much awe and respect from people that it makes sense for people to want to join up and emulate him!
A: Plus, who doesn’t want to fly?
L: Fair point.
Fabrial Technology & Spheres
A: Navani’s epigraphs in these two chapters are all about moving Stormlight from one gemstone to another. I’m glad to finally have evidence that this is part of fabrial science! It also seems to be rather a trade secret among the various groups of artifabrians, creating a headache for Navani. At this point, though, she only seems concerned with drawing the Stormlight out of a gemstone in order to pull a spren into it.
You know, it’s kind of hard to talk about epigraphs when you haven’t read them all, because you don’t know where they’re going!
The fabrial was set with two bright garnets, and had a series of intricate wire loops.
Shallan was particularly proud of that design. And although Veil had initially found it showy, she now recognized that was good for this group. They seemed to trust it implicitly as they held it up to her and pressed some buttons. The garnets went dark, and the figure proclaimed, “She bears no illusions.”
Selling them that device had been delicious fun.
A: Okay, that totally cracked me up. Delicious indeed! I’m assuming that pressing the buttons just drained the Stormlight somehow, which in itself is interesting, given Navani’s epigraphs about how to draw Stormlight out of gemstones to trap a spren. But creating a showy-looking fake fabrial for the sole purpose of letting these idiots think they could detect a Lightweaver’s illusions… that’s priceless.
L: I also love that it seems as though Veil and Shallan worked together to make this.
Syl appeared in the air before him in the shape of a young woman, hands on her hips. “And don’t you dare return!” she shouted up at the departing Fused. “Or we’ll… um… come up with a better insult than this one!” She glanced at Kaladin. “Right?”
A: This has no home, but it makes me laugh, so… here it is.
L: Bless Syl.
A: She has so many good lines in this chapter. But everyone has just read it, so I (barely) refrained from quoting all of them.
We’ll be leaving the speculation to you in the comments, so have fun and remember to be respectful of the opinions of others! Also, while spoilers are not even a thing in this forum, do be careful out there on the rest of the interwebs, and don’t spoil things for those who are trying not to read the previews.
Alice would just like to take this opportunity to congratulate Lyndsey on the successful Kickstarter and the publication of her novel Greencloak. Well done! It was so satisfying to watch the numbers climb and reach the stretch goals.
Lyndsey would like to take this opportunity to thank Alice for that, and all the Kickstarter backers for their support. She’s so excited to see what the reactions to her book will be! If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram.
Lyn! You have competition with Kara for Kalladin!
What are Dalinar’s powers actually? And where’s the Stormfather? I feel that’s the most important stuff here…where’re his viewpoints?
This week I find myself far more interested in reading what Shallan is doing than… Kaladin. While I enjoyed finding out the state of Bridge 4, the number of new Radiants, and some minor technicalities, big Kaladin fights in the air don’t captivate me all that much. Or Kaladin being tired. Shallan investigating the Sons of Honor, now *that’s* interesting.
I am really glad I wasn’t wrong, during the OB re-read when I argued we weren’t done with Ialai, she wasn’t without resources and she would bounce back. I am ecstatic over resistance being formed against the Kholins because everyone falling in-line with Dalinar seemed so unrealistic, back in OB: this group trying to put a new Queen on the throne comes through as a far more realistic train of events. I really love the idea it was all led by Ialai and I am curious to hear how many of the other Highprinces are supporting her. I am also very curious to find out if Ialai has it against Adolin for murdering Sadeas, if she wants revenge. I do think it was within Dalinar’s character not to go too hard on Ialai because of what Adolin did, but I really, really, really want to find out what it did to their relationships. And what of Dalinar’s book? So far, there is absolutely no clue he told the truth… So this must not have happened just yet.
I am, however, annoyed at no longer reading Shallan chapters but a mix between Veil/Radiant and Shallan. I am not sure I like the fact Sanderson suddenly decided Shallan would have real-life canonical DID just as I am not sure I like spending time with Veil/Radiant. Shallan is the one I like reading. Veil, Radiant, I want them gone. And I really, really, really want to hear how Adolin feels being married to a woman spending more time being someone else than the woman he loves.
As a result, I am glad Adolin attacked because this means we may see him next week even if he has no viewpoints.
I also liked Shallan wishing Adolin had killed Ialai too even if it would have been SO wrong of him to do so, I enjoy a character with an edge. Dalinar and Kaladin are so honorable, they have become boring. Shallan, well, is not boring even if I am not sold out on the Veil/Radiant narrative.
Side notes this week, I enjoyed seeing the other side of Roshone. I once said there were two sides to a story, I am glad we are starting to see Roshone’s side.
Regarding Silvery metal = Aluminum? – I don’t think so. When we had Navani’s POV, she mentioned how they use Aluminum to keep Fourth Bridge flying on the proper heading when the motor chull needs to turn around on its platform. SO they know what Aluminum is, and would have been able to recover a weapon from a defeated fused to confirm it.
For me, that’s kinda enough to confirm that it coating on their weapons is not Aluminum, but most likely Odium-ium. Or Raysium, I guess.
“There, unfortunately, progress stopped. Kaladin had lines of men and women ready to advance and say the oaths, but there weren’t willing honorspren to be found. At this point, there was only a single one he knew of who was willing, but didn’t have a bond”
I wonder what the story is here! Is there an honorspren that’s very picky, but wants to bond??
“…but there weren’t willing Honorspren to be found. At this point, there was only a single one he knew of who was willing, but didn’t have a bond. But that was another problem for another time.”
As @5 said, What’s about this Honorspren? Is it a problem because there are so many squires ready for a bond that it can’t choose one over the rest? Or something more? (that’s the impression I got)… I had the thought that maybe this honorspren was perhaps in the process of preparing to bond with (F*%#) Moash and then when he went off the deep end, it’s been hesitant to bond someone else…
I was worried there for a moment when Kaladin’s stubborn point of view on people was clouding him seeing the growth Roshone has made… but a good ‘ol flick on the ear from Syl (she’s absolutely the best!) got him to acknowledge that he’s got personal bias and Roshone has gotten much better.
While I’m not as against the Veil/Radiant viewpoints as Gepeto (well, Radiant does seem incredibly boring), I’m also disappointed that Shallan’s “stable” 3 personalities means that we’ll be getting less of “Shallan herself”, whom we’ve had 3 books to get to know and watch her grow. I don’t really have anything invested in Veil (a lot of persona without very much substance) or Radiant (again, boring) as characters, so even though I know that it’s really Shallan, reading from their viewpoints has me less involved and worried about the character.
I am so pleased that we’re told that Ash (and to whatever extent possible, Taln) was tapped for info on the Fused and otherwise. Having Jasnah approach them at the end of OB was a good cliffhanger, and it’s nice to see some of the payoff of having a *somewhat* sane Harald to get information from.
Woo hoo! New chapters!!
Comments / theories:
– 1 honorspren without a bond – my guess is that this one is waiting on Rock…who refuses to say the words because he is not willing to fight yet and doesnt want to “waste” a windrunner bond on a non fighting runner
– Cord, Aimia – WHAT???
– Kal grunt count =2 (I think!)
– I wonder if the source the sons of Honor have is Taravangian – he was involved with them in some capacity before Gavilar died I believe….
Well, this definitively answered at least one of the questions I’ve had since Brandon initially did readings for the prologue last year, Gavilar was playing the Sons of Honor for his own purposes. I mean, at least that much was obvious in that he was already working with the Heralds, but this confirms that he was completely using them and they had no idea of his own motives. Also that they’re all delusional about their own importance. It is surprising that Ialai, and the Sons of Honor themselves, could still have as much power as they appear to after her house’s army turned on everyone at Thaylen.
Mraize’s interest in taking down the Sons of Honor though implies there’s probably more going on here especially given their head(?) Thaidakar was the first person Gavilar suspected had had him killed. Though Gavilar wasn’t being honest in his support of them, the Ghostbloods would have known he was working with them.
We got our first hint towards the events of Dawnshard here with Cord’s shardplate having been found in Aimia, so that confirms at least one more character who is going to show up there. Given the kickstarter hit the stretch goal for drafts I wonder how long it’ll be still before we start getting a look at that.
Love these new set of chapters!
Quick impressions post chapter read, pre read-along-read:
-A lot of Windrunner candidates, but unfortunately not enough spren!
-So much for my crazy theory that Skar may end up a Stoneward! Oh well, he fit the Order description so well. Always possible he can attract 2 spren, I guess…
-Jasnah “interviewing” the 2 Heralds. Love it.
-I hope Shallan has let Jasnah (or at least Adolin) know about her “work” for the Ghostbloods. It’s been over a year of marriage.
-Cord went to Aimia! Cord went to Aimia! Looking good that she’ll be in Dawnshard! And there was Shardplate there! Let the theories about Aimians hoarding Shards continue!
Okay, time to read what our fearless Beta readers had to say
“Now you care?”
Ow! Kal is totally not over his breakup. Though this chapter makes it clear that he’s really not over anything.
I’m glad that Lopen made third ideal, I was a bit worried that he didn’t hate anyone enough for that ideal to mean anything for him. I bet he swears it in Aimia. He is a POV character in Dawnshard. Oh this is exciting!
@6 bridge4, my personal opinion is we have been reading so much of Veil/Radiant, since OB, we lost, as readers, the sense of who is Shallan. I love Shallan, I love her snarky remarks. Her comments about the seamstress were hilarious. I want *that* when I read her chapter, not Veil thinks this, Radiant believes that. I do not care about Veil or Radiant: they take away Shallan’s page time. I literally hated hearing Veil saying they’d need to find time to sneak Adolin in so Shallan could spend some time with him. WTF? Shallan has gone… insane. Now Veil dictates when she can be with Adolin, she believes she needs to spend time being all of those people.
I don’t like it. I want Shallan back, I want the character I loved reading in WoK and WoR. I want her to kill Veil/Radiant and to be herself again. So I really, really, really hope this is the end game. I will be disappointed if the end game is Adolin having to pick a number to spend time with his “real” wife as she spends more time being Veil/Radiant.
I want Shallan to be back. Her. No more Veil and Radiant.
I find it fascinating how the Radiants and the singer’s have been balanced.
I’ve been thinking the Radiants with swords that can cut anything, unbreakable armour, and two resonating surges apiece seem to eclipse their enemies. The fused on the other hand appear to only have one surge each, and lack the offensive and defensive power of shards.
The previous Desolations were said to be pyrrhic victories, but how could that be the case if one side had such clear advantages?
It’s interesting to see the listeners overcoming these limitations with tactics and ingenuity, and makes them more sympathetic in many ways.
I’m curious if we’ll see more devastating powers and forms emerging, something that really challenges even a radiant in full plate.
I wish I had the book already! Reading two chapters a week is not helping me with the time skip. It feels like I’m getting whiplash!
“Almost all of the surviving original members of Bridge Four had bonded a spren by now,”
Obviously we don’t know yet, but the “almost all” here makes me think of Rlain. If one of the original crew was left out it would be him. It could also mean that Rock hasn’t become a full knight because of his refusal to fight, but still if there is a misfit amongst the misfits it would be Rlain. I really hope he gets some more character development in this book. He must be so lonely. Truly the last of his people. Perhaps him and Venli can help each other.
“The girl wilted if not given proper loving attention.” – that doesn’t sound cute at all. Sounds like immaturity and complete lack of self-love at best. And knowing Shallan, it’s more that one of her personas is incapable of existing without Adolin reinforcing her which will blow up in their faces sooner or later.
That description of Teft… “Beard a little ragged, skin a little rough, mood a lot of both.”
ROFL – Right there with ya, Teft ol’ buddy.
The stated goals of the Sons of Honor here, specifically to return the Almighty, makes me think that Gavilar wasn’t just aiming to be a Herald, as the prologue made me think, but he wanted to take up the Shard of Honor and be the Almighty, and that was the goal he rallied this group around – even if they didn’t know he would be the one becoming the Almighty rather than somehow restoring a weakened god.
Count me as one who is very worried about Kaladin right now. Also, I think he too easily dismisses the Fused getting information about the barge. Knowing that the fabrials can’t be seen and must be housed inside is still important information for a future strike.
I also agree that while I get some enjoyment from the interaction between the personas, I would much rather be reading Shallan.
Regarding Fused having perfect gemhearts, I think it’s more a case of flying using so little power for them that it only appears endless. Whereas healing requires more power and hence uses it up
I am shocked that Queen Jasnah is a complete non-factor and that everyone considers Dalinar to be the de-facto king. I didn’t expect that – what was the point of her taking the crown then? She isn’t even the one who sent Shallan on this mission! I am also surprised that crusty traditionalists like the Sons of Honor are willing to go with a queen at all. Back in OB Dalinar’s intention to offer Ialai the position of Highprincess Sadeas was supposed to be daring and she shut him down pat. Not sure about the justification for “lawful”, but it is possible that Ialai was more highly born than this branch of Kholins and Navani, back before the conquest.
Chana was the “Herald of Common Man”? Even though Taln was the only commoner among them, according to Shalash? Hm…
We finally have it confirmed that Gavilar was, of course, using the Sons of Honor for his own ends. Still Gavilar did think that Restares – the leader of the Sons, may have sent Szeth to kill him, so maybe the latter isn’t as much of a bumbler as this group. I don’t think much about Shallan’s very obvious attempt to hook them either. Could all of this be a feint on Ialai’s part?
Their source close to Dalinar must be Taravangian, Malata or some colleague of theirs, surredoing Odium’s work.
Speaking of Shallan, I used to hate Veil, but this is very much a new and improved Mk 2 version, who is much more like a facet of Shallan than the profoundly irritating and fake persona in OB that used to denigrate everything that I particularly like about Shallan. The new balance gives Shallan’s curiosity and creativity it’s due and so far provides some fun internal dialogue.
So, the Heralds are talking. Then why is so little known about the Sibling and the functioning of Urithiru? They should know about that, at least in broad strokes. Also, why aren’t Nale and the Skybreakers a huge concern? I kinda thought that Taln wouldn’t recover so easily either. Could Jasnah have caught a third one, maybe?
Regarding the honorspren, there should be a lot of them – didn’t they try to conquer Shadesmar at some point? I am also pretty sure that Pattern told Shallan that there actually are _more_ intelligent spren around now than during the Recreance. So, no 50 honorspren couldn’t possibly be all there is. I wonder why the bound honorspren themselves can’t explain what the matter is, or the one yet without the bond, which still has full memory. I used to think that the Stoneward spren would be the ones who’d need convincing, but there is a recent WoB that Stonewards have been popping up across Roshar.
For some reason, I’m drawn to wondering who the prisoners are that Roshone wants to personally go rescue. Or is there a different reason he wants to be there. Maybe he hasn’t done as much growing as we think. Maybe I’m just being cynical though.
Like Kaladin, I think DID will be a relevant part of Shallan’s life for quite some time in the novels. I have gotten curious about the disorder and did a little digging, and it looks like even when treated, it is extremely rare to integrate all alters into one. When it isn’t treated, as we see with Shallan:
“Little is known about prognosis of untreated DID. It rarely, if ever, goes away without treatment, but symptoms may resolve from time to time or wax and wane spontaneously. Patients with mainly dissociative and post traumatic symptoms face a better prognosis than those with comorbid disorders or those still in contact with abusers, and the latter groups often face lengthier and more difficult treatment. Suicidal ideation, failed suicide attempts, and self-harm also occur. Duration of treatment can vary depending on patient goals, which can range from merely improving inter-alter communication and cooperation, to reducing inter-alter amnesia, to integration of all alters, but generally takes years”
Sounds pretty applicable to Shallan. She lacks a dedicated health professional to help her work through and treat her DID. Symptoms do wax and wane seemingly spontaneously. She has practiced self harm on numerous occasions, though the immediate short term issues were mitigated by stormlight healing. I think the coupling of the pressures of the desolations and the taxing nature of her occupation would result in frequently steps forward and back slides. The same references also mention that just because the number of alters has stabilized at this time, does not mean future trauma could not result in additional alters forming.
The biggest goal of helping DID is handling the trauma and enabling the host personality to assume more responsibility gradually. As the host personality assumes greater responsibility, the alters who were formed to protect and operate for the host will over time become less evident and become integrated back into the host.
All this to say I could just as easily see Shallan getting a better, worse, and or maintaining over the course of the series. I really do not feel this is something that can be solved anytime soon. Especially due to the lack of mental health care in the world of Roshar.
@19: Isilel, have you read the Amazon blurb for RoW? It answers your question with respect to the Honorsprens. I did not bring it up because others may not have seen it.
Where do the Fused weapons come from? I don’t think they could be coming from Braize. So they would have to be manufactured on Roshar. If the silvery metal is Aluminum that would have to be massive operation.
I don’t think Singer gemhearts are perfect, but they do hold Investment perfectly. It is related to the epigraph. Investment like other things in nature (ie. temp, pressure) will try to flow from area of high Investment to low Investment. Gemhearts are in the Singer’s bodies and bodies are already lightly infused (Souls) so very little (if any) Investment would be lost from the gemheart into the Singer’s body. At least that’s my theory.
It could be that gems surrounded by a meatsuit are very good at holding Light. Having a body around a gem is like patching holes in a ship;s with tar and canvas. It doesn’t make the ship watertight but it significantly slows down the leak.
In regards to Shallan/Veil/Radiant, what if Shallan’s 4th or 5th Ideal is to admit to herself that Veil and Radiant aren’t real? Or something along those lines, at least.
@25: Zebra, I’d love that! Count me in on that one.
I’m hoping that the fact that we are getting teased with certain characters means something cool is going to come up with them. Where’s Szeth? The other Skybreakers? Where’s Adolin? (sure, we hear about him, but he never appears onscreen) Rlain? Who’s the one SPREN who doesn’t have a bond? Why?
I think it would be amusing as hell if it turned out that the SoH’s “man on the inside” was Shallan the whole time. Maybe misinformation/contract work from Mraize? Other candidates: Renarin, Danlan, one of the Khals, Kadash.
I wonder how Shallan discovered how to attach her Lightweaving in such a way that it would keep up the illusory face even while she was unconscious. And why she thought to learn this skill; was it because of the mission or some other reason.
Interesting that Shallan is using the plural when referring to her different personas. She still sees them as separate individuals, not one person. Many fans had hoped that Shallan would be able to successfully integrate her different characters in such a way as there was only on Shallan; at least I hoped for this. But maybe there is a different solution. Maybe she has 3 separate personalities: Shallan, Veil & Radiant and she always will. They just now accept that they are 3 separate personalities residing in 1 physical body and always working together. Under such an arrangement, the 3 are able to function to the outside world as 1. Why is this not a successful solution? Why must Shallan be like a “normal” person (i.e. not having DID)?
Love the snarky internal comment about the need for the black robes with the Double Eye symbol on them. Those thoughts are one of the many reasons why Shallan is my favorite SA character.
If Ialai is in charge of the Sons of Honor, my first thought when I read that Shallan was brought in front of the hooded members was that Ialai was not among the hooded members. It would be prudent of her not to be part of the initiation ceremony. Only let a select few in the SoH know that Ialai was truly in charge. I was right.
Wow. The Honorspren have truly been busy this last year. Kaladin’s thought makes a good point that did not previously occur to me. It is not enough to have humans (or Listeners, I suppose) be willing to be Knights Radiant; one needs the higher level spren. The number of Knights Radiant will be limited to the number of available and willing spren to complete a Nahel Bond. At this time in the series, there are a lot more souls of the Fused who want to form a Fuse then there are spren to form a Nahel Bond.
I do not understand why Kaladin thought he did not expect to find honor among his enemies. I would have thought that the way Kaladin treated the awakened Singers in OB proved to him that in Kaladin’s mind, there was honor in the other side. I look at this statement as almost an error on Brandon’s part.
I wonder if all of the Fused weapons are lined with the metal (aluminum?) that can withstand a ShardWeapon and if all the Fused weapons have the Stormlight-sucking gemstone. Interesting that the epigraphs for these first several chapters talk about removing Stormlight from one source and placing it into another. Leshwi’s weapon does the same.
It appears from Kaladin’s internal thought about Roshone that Team Honor has more Lightweavers than just Shallan. And as Alice and Lyndsey discussed, it is unlikely that Red is not at least a 3rd Ideal Lightweaver. I hope Gaz has not advanced. I do not like Gaz. This is one of the few things Kaladin and I agree upon.
I have to agree with Adolin on his choice of “rescuing” Shallan. He had no idea that she had called an audible on the fly. Sometimes it is better to fold and take keep the winnings you accumulated than gamble and risk everything. It was a sound military decision. I think that capturing those hooded SoH members would deliver some damage to the organization. By the way, what happened to Restares. How did he/she loose control of the SoH to Ialai. Is it possible that Restares was Ialai all along? That would be devious of Brandon.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
1/
I have a strange feeling Roshone may be headed towards Radiancy.
That being said, I do wonder about the prisoners in the manor’s stormcellar – a call out like that cannot mean just every day type prisoners, they have to be either important people or something Roshone can parlay into a place of power / status within team Dalinar.
2/
I see the evolution of Shallan’s split personalities coming closer together, perhaps as part of a process of eventually becoming one person. They no longer struggle with one another to take over, but work together as one.
Shallan still has secrets/lies she has not faced yet (as described int he first few chapters), so perhaps she will never become one until that happens.
I do find this version of Shallan easier to read / enjoy – much less annoying.
3/
Lots of little hints of Aimia.
I guess it is a lot easier to access Aimia with a bunch of flying Windrunners than other means. And if the Aimians had worked with the Radiants before, perhaps they would be more willing to allow them to investigate the islands.
Assuming there are Aimias actively living on Aimia to notice their arrival.
The question I do have is why did they go there and were they looking for something very specific (ie: like perfect gems?)
I find it further interesting that they found full shardplate(s?) on the island – what happened there? Could this be another location the radiants decided to abandon their oaths, en mass, leaving behind their blades and armour, maybe feeling they would be left untouched and protected? Or was it something more sinister?
Really looking forward to the novella.
And keeping an eye out for every cremling we encounter until we do, so I can go back and investigate after reading Dawnshards.
4/
Honourspren.
We saw how they treated Syl in Shadesmar. I suspect it is the “younger” generation that has bonded with the current radiants. I believe the “older” honourspren, in which are likely the larger portion of the population, are still refusing to bond.
Also, what is with that one lone honourspren that has not bonded with someone?
Is he/she waiting for someone specific?
And who might that be?
My hope is Rlain (if not bonded already – talk about MIA!!!), but it might be Rock or his daughter.
@25 Zebra
Based on my loose reading of DID, if Shallan did so prior to working to gain more responsibility over time, then I could see the result being:
1. Patter dying when she inevitably backslides
2. New alters developing to take Veil and Radiant’s place
3. Having a mental break feeling alone and that the pressure is too much that she cannot handle.
Basically from what I understand, recognizing that the alters are not actual separate people does not change anything. The alters are parts of Shallan created to serve a purpose. So long as Shallan still feels she cannot accomplish that purpose, she will feel she needs them. This link about DID was posted on the 17th shard that interviews people with it, and it is rather interesting if you would like to give it a view.
https://youtu.be/ek7JK6pattE
So is it safe to assume that there are no 4th Ideal Windrunners yet? It seems odd that Lopen has advanced to the 3rd Ideal, which consists of protecting those you hate. Knowing him, he probably jokingly advanced again. Maybe he vowed to protect lavis gruel, which he hates. Almighty knows his spren is not taking the Ideals seriously.
@19 Jasnah doesn’t control the radiants,and she only took the crown because her nephew is too young.She’s much more interested in uncovering things.I’d guess that old Lady who is interested in fabrials is the spy,not likely Malata.
My immediate reaction to a Fused’s ability to perfectly hold Voidlight is it seems very similar to the way a Surgebinder uses Stormlight much more efficiently as they progress through their oaths. Back in Way of Kings, it took Szeth a TON of Stormlight to do basic lashings, and the further we see Windrunners progress, the more we see they can do with less. I kind of just assumed the same thing was going on here with the Fused, but taken to the extreme over millennia of progression. The gemhearts probably help, but I have to think extreme technique begets extreme efficiency.
Isilel @19. To me, it makes sense that Dalinar ordered Shallan to spy/infiltrate the Sons of Honor. Dalinar is the commander of the Knights Radiant. Jasnah is the Queen of Alethkar. She would have no power to command Knights Radiant, even if the mission concerned potential treason against the Jasnah. To me, this is not an internal Alethkar assignment. At least, once Jasnah “requested” help from the Knights Radiant, then it became a KR mission.
Kefka @27. If Danlan is still a scribe the Kholin entourage/Dalinar’s Team Honor operations, then I would have hoped that Kaladin would have revealed her existence as a co-conspirator in the attempt to overthrow Elhokar. I doubt Jasnah is likely to allow Danlan to remain free if she had proof that Danlan committed treason.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Maybe Restares is Ialai’s old family name before she married Sadeas. It could be her or a relative.
@36
Interesting thought, we do not know much about Ialai, and even less about her familial ties / history.
@33 Alan – Szeth required a LOT more Stormlight because he wasn’t actually a Radiant; he was holding Jezrien’s Honorblade. Using the surges granted to you by wielding an Honorblade requires more Stormlight than using the surges because you’re a Radiant with a Nahel Bond.
So is everyone experiencing a hold on their comments being released, pending moderation, or is it just me? Is that the norm on the Read-Along posts? I have only just posted on the weekly chapter release posts up until today.
Edit – Nevermind. I guess its just my @35 post for some reason. Maybe due to me whiting out Chapter 7/8 spoilers?
I still don’t understand how sadeas wife got such a high position in the cult , I mean I gather she was recently initiated into it since her husband knew nothing of it. Also quick question didnt have an heir I don’t recall reading anything about him having a son or daughter. But anyway what about the other players in the game restares and the other guys gavilar suspected . by the way all hail king Rock first of his name king of the horneater peaks. If these chapters are any indication of things to come I can’t wait for november
From the coppermind –
Voidlight takes the form of dark, nearly black vapour, glowing violet. When a person is infused with it, Voidlight spreads over the surface of their skin rather than sinking in. On the skin, it pulses, and when a person infused with Voidlight moves, they leave behind trails of violet light. However, Voidlight does not leak, at least not from the Fused
So is it that voidlight is held perfectly or is it that it is simply held to a different standard?
Re: honor among the Fused — we saw this with Renarin, who they honored for his courage. He didn’t know it, but they were offering to fight him one a time with that spear gesture.
I will bet money the metal on the spears is aluminum. The only way to make aluminum in a world without electricity would be Soulcasting. We make it by electrolysis.
Folks are writing as if Veil and Radiant are people. They’re Shallan playacting. Saying you want more Shallan and less Veil and Radiant is saying you want Shallan to stop being sneaky or skilled in a fight.
This chapter’s Kaladin portions are why I wish Adolin was a main character and Kaladin was not. He spends far, far too much time just thinking about how unhappy he is. Hi, Sazed Jr.
@17, whitespine:
Kaladin is the ultimate front line soldier. He is (as he realized way back in Way of Kings) not a general or intelligence officer.
@12 Edmund…I’d say that the fact that the Fused are reborn every time they die is a pretty big equalizer. When you remember that, the whole concept of 1 on 1 combat against “overpowered” Radiants begins to make sense – if even one Radiant loses, the battle is a net win for team Odium.
@42 Carl – The reason we refer to Veil/Radiant as different people than Shallan is because SHALLAN HERSELF views them as distinct and separate from who she is (it wasn’t always this distinct, but that’s what developed from WoR, through OB, until now), complete with different backgrounds and experiences. She allows the Veil/Radiant personality to come to the front to delude herself into believing she didn’t have the traumatizing past that “Shallan” had, and allow herself (as Veil/Radiant) to pretend her past happened to someone else.
They think differently, act and make decisions differently, etc.. that’s why she’s identified as having Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID).
@42: Carl, I do not want Shallan to stop being sneaky and skilled in a fight, I want her to stop believing she needs to become Veil or Radiant to be so. I want to read Shallan, not Veil and Radiant talking about Shallan: this isn’t just the same. While I agree the chapters are better written than in OB, less confusing, easier to read, Shallan still isn’t… Shallan. I want to hear her voice, her thoughts.
I want her to deal with her past once and for all: I can’t see this happening while Veil and Radiant are around. Part of the reason Dalinar’s arc was so satisfying in Oathbringer was due to the fact it ended. He dealt with his past. It is over. I need Shallan to go through a similar process and to deal with it. To make it over. Oh, there will still be pain, but it will no longer be a crippling issue, like Dalinar.
I agree with you in wishing Sanderson had swapped Kaladin for Adolin to use as the main protagonist, though he wouldn’t have worked in this specific sequence. Kaladin has become so… boring? This incessant inner monologue on how terrible life, how depressed he is, how people are mean to be happy, it is so heavy, I no longer care for it. I know it is supposed to be realistic, but sometimes, less is best. Four chapters into the book and I feel I have read enough of Kaladin already. If he doesn’t have anything more interesting to do other than the fight in the air and muse over the fact he is tired while being annoyed everyone cares so much about him to pester him over it, then I’d wish he’d take a step back. He has become too repetitive. I enjoyed the insights we got on Bridge 4, so for this, I appreciated the chapter, but Kaladin himself? I have become tired of his inner monologue: I want to read everyone else, but him.
I guess, there is the conflict with Lirin which I find interesting, but then again a conflict between Dalinar and Adolin would be far more interesting. There is real bad blood between those two which is far greater than “I dislike you career choice”.
Still, despite my misgivings over Veil/Radiant, I find Shallan’s story arc, so far into the book, to most interesting, so she is what I’ll be looking forward next week. Hopefully, no Kaladin for a few weeks…
Looks like my post@35 somehow was erased, so I’m just going to repost here.
**Warning: spoilers from Brandon’s Reading of Chapter 7-8 (can be found on this site, if you want more) in my Roshone and Fabrial points**
So I’m guessing that there will be massive speculation about who the Sons of Honor have near Dalinar for awhile (probably until we get the actual spy’s identity on screen), but there are a few obvious options: disgruntled ardents, Adolin’s exes, Taravangian playing multiple sides, etc. And I wonder if we actually find out who Restares is through this arc…
Re: Roshone – I don’t see this as redemption, just as a man trying to survive with no other choices. He got beaten down, but I see no great evidence that he rose above. He informs Dalinar first that prisoners are kept in the basement, but it’s not like he was the only one with that information. I refuse to give him the benefit of the doubt that he did that because only he had the information and only he could help; it’s just as likely that he was once again trying to curry favor with the Kholin family and this was a good way to do so. And just because he gets killed leading Radiants to prisoners in his manor in the next few chapters doesn’t automatically redeem him.
Re: F*** Moash – Yeah, that can be dropped in any Stormlight Article, at any time, and be totally acceptable as far as I’m concerned.
Re: Fused Fabrials – I’m also really curious to see how the Fused are devising/building their fabrials. Maybe the Stormlight sucking spears are based on relics from the past, but the Nahel-Bond-dampener field in Chapter 7 was clearly a surprise to the Radiants and the spren, so it appears to be rather new. I am skeptical that Odium would commit a lot of his “body” (I think that was the whole Mistborn/atium thing, right?) to produce significant amounts of god-metal to arm a number of the Fused, but who knows?
Re: Kaladin and the spared Fused – I strongly expect this Fused to play a larger role sometime later. Or maybe just knowledge that Kaladin spared a Fused.
Re: Kaladin and his depression – I agree with Lyn, I don’t think its supernatural. I think he’s just battling depression.
Re: Red being a Radiant and not a squire – I didn’t read it that way. I just thought they had him infiltrate the group with a different alias. Was Red normally a lighteyes? If so, then I guess I read that wrong and he’s got some kind of Illumination powers…
Re: Sleepless – They really are everywhere. I wonder if they have infiltrated Singer-ruled lands as much. Do the Fused know to look out for them? Have they allied with the Radiants a bit more during the events of Dawnshard? Questions, questions…
@46 KiManiak
I agree regarding Red. If he was a squire he would have the very real problem of needing to be near his radiant the entire time he is undercover. Sounds more likely that he is a radiant in his own right.
Um… in a fight such as this one – the Radiants having almost limitless storm light and the Fused spending their voidlights to heal – I would have thought a general and strategist like Dalinar would suggest that the Windrunners try to avoid killing their enemies. As soon as they are left with no void light our heroes might just pluck them and put them all in a guarded storm bunker somewhere. This way the enemy would effectively lose some Fused fighters; or, at the very least, we would discover when and how they can recharge their voidlight.
Navani’s fabrials may well be below decks, but I still would fear their theft. We do not know what limits are there to the power of the teleporting Fused. Does it only work with a line of sight or wha
Maybe because Dalinar and Navani were excommunicated from Vorinism (as Jasnah would be, assumedly)? Gavinor being alive should be public knowledge by now, shouldn’t it? Can’t figure out how he gets explained out of the succession, though.
@33 That said, it does imply that there are more efficient ways of doing things. Honorblade << Radiant < Fused /w gemheart?
It may also be that flying (gravitation surgebinding yourself) is more efficient since its being done on yourself. And Light is attracted to gems, from the epigraphs.
Humans don’t have gemhearts, so their sole storage is their porous fleshbags. It’d be interesting if a gem could be implanted into a human to serve this purpose, but that’s probably beyond Sanderson’s desire to avoid squick and Roshar’s surgical ability (to do safely, that is). But if they did I wonder how much better they’d retain Stormlight (let alone Voidlight, which has different properties). Singers/Fused do, however, so it’s possible that a certain amount of light used on themselves for on non-transmutative activities (flight as opposed to healing, body generation, etc) is automatically recycled by being recaptured into the gemheart.
I mean, it could also be “voidlight sticks to bodies better” but that doesn’t explain “unlimited flight” very well; Sanderson doesn’t do perpetual motion without clever cheating, so it’s probably more a “highly efficient system” than outright “voidlight is basically pixie dust.”
I will once again point out that these epigraphs are dripping with potential foreshadowing. I fear it’s hinting that we’re going to see a sentient bonded spren (like Syl or Pattern) get trapped in a fabrial, and it is going to be horrifying for all involved. *shudder* I really hope I’m wrong!
I personally found Shallan’s sections to be utterly delightful to read. I have been liking her more and more in each book, and the progress she made during OB and the year since has turned her into a much more stable character for me.
@@.-@, I see no reason why it couldn’t still be aluminum on the blades. Just because Navani knows of aluminum, doesn’t mean soldiers like Kaladin do. I think we just have to RAFO, since, as usual, Brandon doesn’t have any intention of giving us answers for the sake of answers. He’ll tell us when it supports the story or the characters. And not a stormin’ minute sooner.
Am I the only one eagerly waiting for the moment when someone decides that their new flying platform needs blinging up a bit, and a group of people are assigned the duty of Painting the Fourth Bridge?
@42, 45:
I’m actually the complete opposite. I actually enjoy Kaladin’s viewpoints. Clearly, the depression does become draining at times, but Kaladin also gives the moral center of the entire war. He’s the only main character that actually treats the Parsh/Parshendi as actual people compared to the others, something that is inherently powerful considering the whole underarching story. Shallan has her own problems, Dalinar has to worry about the overall war, the others all have different problems, but the morality and honor of battle isn’t one. This is, for me at least, not that far of from bushido code and chivalry as a concept. The only other character that comes kind of close is Rock, and maybe whatever Brandon decides to do with Rlain. This is the world where Honor is the shard and the Windrunners will always be on the forefront of that.
As for Adolin, well, the rich princeling trope has kind of been used before in Elend, to an extent. He wouldn’t add anything all that different if having to prove himself to himself is his whole arc. Renarin fills that gap, with a twist of corruption and “other.”
As always, we ask that you keep the tone of the discussion civil and constructive; our moderation guidelines can be found here.
@55 Keyblazing, I think we may have to agree to disagree. I find Kaladin’s inner monologue tedious to read and I do not understand why “draining” is a desirable aspect in a narrative. I do agree Kaladin could/can/still has an important unique role to fulfill, but I wish this role would take the front seat over his inner musing on how terrible his life is.
So all in all, I am more than ready to see the narrative move away from Kaladin’s inner angst in order to welcome new protagonists. In light of this, yes, Adolin strikes me as a more interesting character to develop, at this point in time, in large part because I believe his inner monologue has much to offer. The fact Elend was developed in Mistborn should not, in my mind, bar Adolin from having a role nor more than the existence of Wax should bar Kaladin from having one.
This is all very speculative. Kaladin obviously is the main protagonist and will remain so until the end of book 5. It doesn’t change the fact I wish the narrative would focus less on him and more on other characters. Obviously Adolin is a favorite of mine, but I’d really take anyone over Kaladin at the current moment.
I really wish we could drop the “f*** Moash” and “#noredemption” thing.
My personal least favourite character is getting a redemption arc, and the main narrative role, in this book. If committing genocide against your own people out of nothing more than selfish ambition, and setting off the end of the world does not bar a person from redemption, then surely Moash’s much lesser crimes do not either.
It is very possible that Moash will not get a redemption arc, and that he (along with Amaram) was intended as a contrast to Dalinar’s arc in Oathbringer by showing the path of someone who, despite being horrified by their actions, ultimately chooses not to take responsibility for them. And I would be fine with that. But I would also be fine with him changing his attitude and getting a redemption arc, as that has happened with far, far worse characters.
@14 On Rlain being the last of his people. He absolutely believes this, but some dissenter Listeners escape in one of the WoR interludes, the ones who didn’t want to change. Eshonai says not to worry about them because they’ll be killed in the next storm, but I don’t remember ever finding out what happened to them. Couldn’t they still be out there somewhere?
@28 I think Kal is differentiating between Fused and the more regular parshman when he says he didn’t expect to find honor among his enemies. They know the Fused are reborn ancient souls who basically detest humans, I don’t think it’s strange to think they might not be honorable, especially for Kaladin, who has seen very few honorable conquerors/rulers. He equates the Fused to lighteyes, and still has the bias he grew up with that most of them aren’t honorable.
@46 Uhhh, if your first comment is deleted, maybe don’t repost it, especially if you don’t white-text spoilers. Not only is it unclear which part(s) of your post are spoilers for chapters 7 and 8, but if you don’t white-text, people can see what you’ve typed even if they’re trying to avoid it.
@58 “I really wish we could drop the “f*** Moash” and “#noredemption” thing.” I’m with you 1000%. #EdgedancerProblems lol Frankly, I’m expecting Brando to make Rayse sympathetic before this is all over, and IMO every person who says “[such-and-such] makes [person] beyond redemption” doesn’t understand the Immortal Words. Strength before weakness. It doesn’t matter how many times someone has failed in the past, how many times they’ve blamed failure and weakness on someone or something else, EVERY breath they draw is an opportunity to change. Every time that we witness someone doing the right thing, regardless of their motivation, is an opportunity to give them the benefit of the doubt and applaud them for it – none of us are perfect, and not one of us ever has been. Kal’s thought about Roshone ‘acting’ is the first time in a long time that I’ve wanted to smack him for his moral-superiority complex, and I’m glad that Brandon has Syl [and to an extent, Lirin] doing it for me.
Re: Godeke – Thanks a lot, ladies, now I’m going to spend the entirety of the book tearing up every time he’s mentioned D;
Re: people calling Kal’s viewpoints ‘boring’ – Oof, way to take a big, steaming s*** all over people with depression. Kal’s viewpoints are painfully realistic; that’s how people with depression feel ALL THE DAMN TIME. Brandon is giving you a peek into the mind of a depressed person, and instead of realizing that it’s a s***ty life to be stuck with and gaining some empathy for people with depression, you’re whining about their thoughts not being positive. Same goes for people calling Shallan ‘crazy’ and wishing her viewpoints didn’t accurately depict DID.
Come on, folks, I know you can do better :\
@58
Venli isn’t a particular favorite of mine either. Unfortunately I believe she’s necessary for the world to survive Odium, hence the redemption arc. I don’t know what her contribution will ultimately be but the Fused have too many advantages, including a prominent member of the coalition actively working for Odium and an undying enemy, to survive without an inside ‘man’.
Re: Kaladin
Idk, he doesn’t seem as mopey as he’s been in previous installments in the series. He even had a romantic relationship. It failed but it’s miles away from him being unable to think about anything else besides work or pining for a woman he knew was unattainable. Kaladin angst is never completely going away but I’m sure we’ll get more lighthearted moments for the guy. But everyone has their favorites so to each their own.
With the shortage of Honor Spren, could the FIFTH ideal give Kalladin the ability to make new Honor Spren, or turn Wind Spren into Honor Spren?
I’m sorry, but I can’t see Moash getting a redemption arc. Eventually you are going to have to have some bad guys, everyone can’t be redeemed, and bad guys have to lose. This is a story and not reality. Maybe Moash as Odiums champion and Kaladin as humans champion. I can see Odium using Moash as the champion with the thinking that he could get inside Kals head.
@60: Cruel, I am uncomfortable with this response. Readers are entitled to their opinions and thoughts without being accused of lacking empathy. This is a terribly bold thing to say especially without knowing where some of us come from.
You are allowed to disagree with some of the comments expressed, but I do not think this was the most appropriate response to this disagreement. No hard feelings.
On Moash: I would prefer if he did not get a redemption arc, but I do not think he should be ruled out based on his actions.
I haven’t read all the comments but did anyone else feel like the fighting between Kaladin and Leshwi felt more like FLIRTING? I could see Kaladin going down that path and it would sure be an interesting plot direction.
I don’t mind Veil, but I find Radiant kind of boring. With regard to Shallan’s personalities in general, I’m reminded of the concept of the tulpa. IIRC, it started as a form of mysticism in some cultures, and it involves deliberately creating a separate personality within one’s own psyche. I wonder if Shallan’s endgame isn’t to get rid of or reabsorb Veil and Radiant, but simply for them to become truly subordinate personalities rather than being intrusive or “talking over” Shallan.
Rock’s daughter Cord had done the deed with a wellplaced arrow from her Shardbow
We know that Horneaters have roles for their sons based on birth order, and I’ve always wondered if this applies to daughters as well. Do they have the same role hierarchy as sons, a different one, or none at all? Do we know where Cord falls in the birth order and whether her being a warrior matches up with the “appropriate” roles for sons?
Also, I kind of want to see some stuck-up Alethi being scandalized by a female Horneater Shardbearer.
With regard to Lyn and Kaladin, do you think they broke up because she’s in his direct chain of command and they thought that would be sketchy, or was it for more personal reasons?
I wonder if Rock’s relationship to his spren is any different from the standard Radiant-spren bond on account of whatever gave him the ability to see spren.
I have a terrible feeling that [roll over to read potential spoilers from an upcoming chapter] the thing which causes Kaladin to be removed from “active duty” (as seen in the preview chapter Brandon released in one of his newsletters) is going to be the red-light-Fused “capsizing” the Fourth Bridge. [end spoilers/speculation]
I wonder what made Roshone step up and take active responsibility, as he seems to have done. He’s a very different man than the one we saw in the beginning of Oathbringer, much less the vicious rat he was in The Way of Kings.
I almost wonder if he’s going to end up becoming Radiant. Hey, if Gav can do it…
Without quoting the extended passage, these people are so gullible. They must drive Ialai nuts sometimes
I’m imagining Ialai doing the “Why must I be surrounded by frickin’ idiots?!” bit.
She’d found in AIMIA? What?!
That was my reaction too.
@6: I really like that idea about the one unbonded spren having originally intended to bond Moash. I can certainly understand why it would be reluctant to bond someone else in that case!
@60/65 – Comment #35 somehow got caught in our spam filter, which is the only reason why it wasn’t published immediately. Before we noticed this, KiManiak reposted the comment, guessing the issue with the first comment was having whited out some text (which wasn’t the cause at all).
Also, keep the spoiler policy (third paragraph of this post) in mind:
People who have read all published chapters will come back to older posts and continue discussions. If you’re really concerned about chapter-by-chapter spoilers, just ignore the comments until you’re caught up—we’re only three weeks in!
Let’s move on and get back to discussing the book. Thanks!
@30 See also the Stephen Leeds series (Legion) if you have not yet read it.
The whole windrunner/ heavenly ones fight reminds me a lot of the ‘ideal’ WW1 aerial combat – the entire dueling-and-honor, above the battlefield, all but removed from the ground war.
Sorry Moderator, to be more clear – the spoiler post @67 is for content that has NOT BEEN RELEASED AS PART OF A CHAPTER, but from a future event / chapter in RHYTHM OF WAR that was released elsewhere.
Are we now letting people spoil future released content not included in the preview chapters posted on ToR?
Not trying to cause problems, trying to validate policy.
Spoiler text from 67 below:
I have a terrible feeling that the thing which causes Kaladin to be removed from “active duty” (as seen in the preview chapter Brandon released in one of his newsletters) is going to be the red-light-Fused “capsizing” the Fourth Bridge.
End of spoiler posted.
@72 – Thanks for the clarification. Please flag those spoilers for now.
@60 CruelSadist
Excellent points all the way around! (And then I laughed when typing your username)
Tai’shar Godeke!
So, something that occurred to me between last week and this:
Dalinar has the power to reach into the Spiritual Realm and draw power from it. The implications of that are pretty staggering. We’ve seen Radiants heal limbs that were killed by Shardblade, re-infusing the limbs with spirit via the power of Investiture. Dalinar theoretically ought to be able to do that for someone who wasn’t a Radiant. I can imagine him being able to actually heal someone who was killed by a Shardblade: who’s to say he couldn’t reach into the Spiritual Realm, find the person’s soul, and reconnect it to their body? For that matter, why couldn’t he do that for someone who was killed by mundane means? — though he’d need an Edgedancer around, to keep the soul in its body afterwards. It’ll be interesting to see how far he can go.
@66 mm hm, I saw it too. The way he looks for her straight away, the way right after he’s given the order to fight only on the defensive he immediately chases after her the minute he sees her. This could be just the thing to spice up a character which, ok frankly I adore but apparently lots of people find boring? He’s young and red blooded, after all, whilst she is … unbelievably old and orange blooded so things can only unfold well
I wonder whether Heavenly ones being honorable is somehow a side effect of Odium using corrupted Investiture from Honor.
Somehow the Intent bleeds through? Might be reading too much into it. I’m also wondering whether Shallan’s DID somehow impacts her Identity aspect.
@60 CruelSadist
A hundred times this. Reading those opinions makes me sad. I find those chapters realistic and important in a lot of ways. Good representation of mental illness is rare, especially in fantasy, where they frequently devolve into tropes. I find criticism on that ground that those viewpoints are “boring” really shallow. In my opinion, a book is allowed to be “boring” in parts, if those parts serve the characters and the story.
I wonder whether this pops up because of the way the chapters are released though. It’s easier to criticise pacing when you get to read only a chapter or two per week.
@45
I really hope you don’t get your wish. For me, Shallan completely dealing with her mental issues any time soon would be unrealistic. I don’t think it’s possible to deal with PTSD “once and for all”.
So, “risking bringing the Bondsmith” on missions because he’s useful, and later a description of what it takes for the Fused to attack Dalinar. Sando, you better not kill our man.
As for the one unbonded spren, my guess would be that it wants to bond to Rock, but he refuses to swear the next oath. Perhaps another spren from another order (I think the Stonewards) will bond with him in the meantime, and maybe we’ll even see our first double Radiant. No compounding though
@60
Thank you for saying that! I have moderately severe depression and was enjoying how relatable Kaladin was, that somebody was putting on the page what it feels like, and also just rooting for him as a character and hoping that he’ll pull through or get the help he needs, or otherwise overcome what he’s going through and end up triumphant–whether soon or eventually, either is fine with me. Then reading comments to the effect that he was annoying and people wanted him to go away was like a big slap to the face. Those comments were clearly made without thinking about how they would sound to people who suffer like he does, not much awareness or empathy, like you said.
I am sorry, StarKindler 80, but the only person who is aggessive and disrespectful to others is you and Cruel Sadist. You literally insulted people because they don’t like your favorite fictional character. Kaladin is a fictional character and a very Generic Fantasy Protagonist and yes, he is boring to plenty of people because of how generic he is and because his chapters adds anything new to the story. With more intriguing characters like Dalinar, Venli, Szeth, Navani and Adolin (for Gepeto) who don’t get any screen time so far, no surprise some people want to switch the focus to something more interesting for them.
Those people don’t deserve your insults. You directly accuse people of having no awareness and no empathy? Seriously? Do you hear yourself? People say they find a fictional character boring and you blame them for having no empathy?
I think you should apologise.
@81 anomander, many,
I think the main point of contention here is that people who are bashing Kaladin/Kaladin’s story arc seem to be attributing their dislike directly to his depression. No person, fictional or real, is wholly their mental illness, however having it be at the center of his arc is what most people who dislike him have contention with. On the other side, people with depression, PTSD, SAD, etc. feel a strong Connection to Kal because of how prominent Brandon has made his mental health while at the same time not making it all of who he is. So unfortunately, whenever someone hates on Kal because they feel reading him is a slog, they seem to be blaming it on his depression which rightfully angers those with real life depression, SAD, PTSD. Battling his SAD and PTSD is part of Kaladin’s arc, but it will not magically go away, and blaming your dislike of Kal because of this is akin to victim-blaming. Is it always pleasant to read? No, but it certainly gives the reader a chance to peer into someone else’s head that you’ve never had a glimpse of before.
Edit to Add: In the future, it might be good to think of Kaladin’s depression as it’s own character, stopping Kaladin from doing things he would otherwise want to do. Instead of saying “I hate Kaladin because he’s depressed all the time” say “I hate Kaladin’s depression because it is preventing him from progressing faster and doing things he wants to do”
Regarding the Fused weapons, they could have found the stash of aluminum that Wit brought to Kholinar, assuming that there was more than just the aluminum lining the walls of the room Azure had the soul casters working out of.
@44, bridge4kufer:
You are quite correct. And she is delusional. There is only one person there.
@Gepeto, I’m sure Shallan’s arc has an ending. In the next book, probably. So, figure 3 years until we get it.
Let me say it now: Moash will be redeemed. He still has not committed nearly the crimes of, say, Dalinar.
@60, CruelSadist:
Nope. Saying that it’s repetitious and doesn’t make for good storytelling is not whining. This is a novel, not an exercise in empathy training. If you like this aspect of the story, then great, that is totally valid. I’m not required to pretend that it is enjoyable, or teaching me anything, when it is not. (Again, I am describing my own reaction, not insisting that you agree.)
@78, Thraden:
I actually like the idea that when Odium corrupts another Shard’s Investiture, it establishes a two-way Connection and also influences his own.
I agree with @81.
To the various commenters who approve of Cruel intervention @60 despite its accusations, this is response is for all of you.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and has the right to voice it out. An opinion, however, has to be voiced out in respect to other people’s opinions. We are reading a multi-POV fantasy here: not all of us will enjoy the same characters in the same manner.
Some of you enjoyed reading Kaladin’s chapters, you cannot get enough of them and for you, they such precious gems, when it comes to a realistic depiction of depression, you treasure them? By all means, please make your opinion known. Talk of why Kaladin is such a great character for you, but please accept not all readers are going to agree with you. Counter-argue why you do not feel Kaladin’s inner monologue has gotten repetitive or where you think the character is heading. You find the character very interesting? Then explain why, show us how you are viewing things. You may not change other people’s opinions, but yours will be heard.
I really, really, really wish this re-read would not fall prey to start attacking the messengers as opposed to the message. Comments insinuating readers who dislike (or find him boring to read) Kaladin are not understanding depression, lack empathy, or would badly treat real-life people suffering from depression should not be accepted in this re-read. They hit too close to personal attacks for all of us to feel comfortable about them. I am not comfortable with them.
More to the point, I find them sad and insulting because if anyone has experience with depression, it is myself, but I try to leave as much of my personal life as I can out of those pages. It isn’t pretty. It isn’t a nice cute tale. And before I get accused of not being understanding, it had violence. Yes. Violence. Think knife and brooms. Against me. The brooms though, not the knife. I was not the one who had depression. I have the “other” perspective. So please, do not assume others do not “understand” and look at the argument in an objective manner. I know this can be difficult, at times, I know this. I understand this, but we all have to try.
Kaladin and his depression have been a central theme within the past three books. So three books out of five focused, in a significant manner, on depicting Kaladin’s depression. Three books. Does every single book need to have Kaladin and his depression as a central theme? We have 10 orders of Radiants, we have many fantastic characters, many of which are getting very little page time. So yes, it is possible, within book 4, the outlier book, the book not supposed to focus on the original protagonists too much, some of us would wish Kaladin and his depression were to take the backseat to, well, the rest of the story. By all means, this chapter does not mean he won’t. We are in chapter 4. A lot of things can change, but this week, yes, some of us have had those comments.
Thus, appreciate you have gotten three books worth of fantastic realistic depiction of depression and accept some of us feel this is enough, and wish to move on now.
@84
Yeah, I’m a sucker for “evil-ultimately-defeats-itself” storylines, I admit.
Though as I wrote – I might be reading too much into it. Might be just the way the personality of those Fused works out.
But then on the other hand I think the text mentioned that the one-on-one combat aspect is specific to Heavenly Ones. This would work out nicely as them being analogues to Windrunners, who (along with Skybreakers) seem closest to Honor.
Is anyone else wondering about the possibilities of the Stormlight-sucking weapon Leshwi has, considering the epigraphs talk about how much easier it would be to create Fabrials if she could easily suck the Stormlight out of gemstones?
With regard to Moash: I feel like we can be very binary about the possibilities for this character and it’s not healthy. Either he will get ‘a redemption arc’ and be heroic again or he won’t, and we should feel nothing but contempt for the character. I doubt there’s anything the character can do to redress the many bad things he’s done, but I can also see why he would end up in this state: there but for the grace of Honour goes Kaladin, after all. Moash is one of the many consequences of Alethi society: a society that treated like he was worthless and even when he was rescued from that state left him subservient to a man who was wholly unfit for command. If you’re going to claim absolute authority like the kings of Alethkar, you need to be able to shoulder that authority and care for the people under you.
This is not to say Elhokar deserved to be killed, but equally Moash didn’t deserve to lose his grandparents to a lingering imprisonment and then be made cannon fodder on the front lines.
Ultimately I suspect Moash won’t get what people ‘a redemption arc’ but we’ll look back on his story as a tragic one: a potentially good man chewed up and spat out partially by the Alethi nobility and partially by his inability to draw under his own injustices.
dashardie@82
That’s not what happened at all.
Firstly, I read all comments and no one here is bashing Kaladin and his story arc. Some people, in a polite manner, have said they find his chapters repetitive and boring because those chapters can’t add anything that wasn’t adressed and explored in details in previous books. Some said they wish for other characters to be more prominent. I don’t see any hate for Kaladin here. Yes, people are allowed to dislike fictional characters without getting insults in response.
See, you are dong it again, saying “it certainly gives the reader a chance to peer into someone else’s head that you’ve never had a glimpse of before.”
HOW do you knpw these people don’t have a glipse of what depression is? How do you and those agressive commenters can judge people based on their feelings towards certain fantasy character? Maybe some of these people have depression/DID/PTSD too? Or a family member with depression. Or “literally everything”. You don’t know any of these people. I don’t know them too. All I know, some comments here are insulting, and attacking people for having an opinion shouldn’t be allowed here. Telling someone they’re lacking empathy and have no respect for people suffering with depression is an extremelly serious accusation that shouldn’t be allowed here. Espesially when people explained why they dislike Kaladin and it has nothing to do with his depression in most cases. Saying “I think he is boring” has nothing to do with depression. I, for example, am tired to read about lashings and other Windrunner things. I’m tired of Windrunners. The series will be over soon, but we didn’t see anything from Willshapers, Edgedancers, Stonewards, Truthwatchers, and almost nothing about Bondsmiths, Skybreakers and Elsecallers. Only flying Windrunners doing lashings. I’d like to see other Orders of Knight Radiants, that’s why I would prefer less of Kaladin and more of other characters withh different abilities. If someone is so emotionally fragile and can’t accept the simple reality where other people will have their own opinions and desires, it’s better not to visit any comment sections at all.
I’m very indifferent to these two chapters. The Shallan/Veil/Radiant thing doesn’t really lend itself well to imagery (when it’s referring to internal monologue like this), it’s mildly annoying to follow, and most of all I just agree with the comments about how I want to read about the Shallan that I grew to care about in WoK + WoR. It’s fine for some chapters here and there but I really hope it doesn’t continue for 1200 pages.
The Kaladin stuff is fine; while I like the concept of him flying, I find it wordy and hard to follow on paper. Again, it’s fine for a battle here and there, but Kaladin the person, and even Kaladin the spearman, interest me way more than Kaladin the Flying Guy. Also, a lot has been focused on the Basic Lashing but I’d really like to see more innovation with the other two.
Getting more info on the new full Radiants vs squires is cool, but also just raises more questions. How does one judge if someone is “ready to swear the Third ideal”? Our experiences with Kaladin show these ideals coming after much internal struggle, which was not necessarily obvious to the outside world, and it seems hard to judge this externally. In addition, I wonder a little about whether the ideals are really exactly the same for everyone. Is “protecting those I hate” necessarily the Third Ideal, or was that just Kaladin’s ideal based on his personal demons?
I guess I’m mostly struggling with there being three full books getting us close to a handful of Radiants and now surprise there are dozens of them. I’m sure I’ll get used to it, but the time gap is a bit jarring, especially reading just two chapters at a time.
@76 Resurrection of someone who’s moved on to the spiritual seems to be beyond even a full Shard; even a double-shard holder didn’t know how to do it. It’s all but explicitly stated that once you go Beyond into the spiritual, that’s it; game over/you don’t want to come back.
Not to pile on @60 (whose comment was rather presumptuous), but I don’t find Kaladin boring. I find his chapters exhausting to read. It’s not something I find enjoyable, as fantasy books are generally escapism from the real world. It doesn’t mean I lack empathy from people who suffer depression. It’s just not enjoyable for me to read. It’s a shame, too, because Kaladin started out as my favorite character. His arc in The Way of Kings is one of my favorite all-time arcs in any fantasy book. Ever. But it seems like maybe Brandon has gone too overboard with the realistic portrayal of depression? Like, he wanted to be super sensitive about it, so he researched and talked to people with depression, and takes care in writing Kaladin that way. But, again this is just my opinion, perhaps Brandon has leaned too far into that aspect of his character in order to be sensitive to people who suffer from depression.
To be fair to everyone, Kaladin does have 25 percent of the POVs in the series so far. Shallan is at 20 percent and Dalinar is at about 15 percent. Has there already been speculation about which characters fit which group? (Or is that too much of a spoiler?)
I don’t think people who dislike Kaladin’s chapters are being cruel or lacking for empathy, but perhaps it is a little naive?
We’re nearly four books deep in this series by now. Kaladin is one of the main characters: we’re going to get his viewpoint, and his viewpoint is going to have all the repetitive, circling negative thoughts that people with depression can be prey to. It’s fine not to like that, but surely by chapter four of book four you’ve got to accept it’s going to pop up from time to time.
If this is, as someone suggested, a book where other characters are going to get more of the limelight, it seems like there’s plenty of time for that: this could be an early baseline of ‘normality’ before we depart and see some other points of view. I think chapter four might be a bit early to say “Too much Kaladin. Worst. Book. Ever.”
A few (heh) more observations:
I find the use of acronyms for Windrunner ranks really jarring and unnecessary. Didn’t they only come into widespread use in 20th century iRL? That’s like Shallan using “allergic ” in WoR, even though they really shouldn’t have any concept of allergy, as Lirin’s PoV kinda confirms.
It doesn’t seem like in a year of “brutal war” any Windrunners have actually died? Despite Leshwi’s fabrial-spear being “deadly”. I have to wonder what’s going on with the relatively few and inexperienced Radiants without the leadership of the Heralds being able to hold their own so well. I am sure that Dalinar’s perpendicularlies are a novel factor and help a lot, but the Fused have killed Heralds in the past, despite their unlimited investiture feed from Honor. What is more, before the Everstorm a Fused getting killed would have been gone until the next Desolation, and even though this is no longer the case, we were told that each rebirth injures their sanity. They shouldn’t let themselves get killed so cavalierly! Even the teleportation Fused wouldn’t have been dangerous to a Radiant in Plate or one just wearing mundane body armor with a gorget. IMHO, either modern Radiants and squires are more powerful than they used to be, because Honor no longer limits them, or the Fused are cozening them for a crushing fall, or both.
Count me among those who are Kaladin-ed out. For me, it has nothing to do with his depression, which I very much appreciate, but with the fact that despite it, he is still the closest to a stereotypical fantasy protagonist and constantly hogs the limelight in what should have been other characters books. I also dislike that he is clearly being positioned to give us certain insights into the singers and the Fused that really should have come from Venli or Rlain. Shades of great white human savior there.
It is becoming ever more obvious as well that Kaladin will be the one to acsend to Honor – all the foreshadowings in the earlier books, him being prepared to bring the singers and possibly even the Fused into “unite them”, etc.
Speaking of Shallan, she should have developed a system of signals with her supporting crew, so that such misunderstandings wouldn’t happen. Also, hopefully she knows about the larkin – sure, they are rare, but SoH might have had one. It is dangerous to rely on Lightweaving too much. Which is why I think that Red didn’t need to have a spren of his own. He is not well enough known that he’d have needed a non-mundane disguise.
Thraden @78:
I had exactly the same thought just a few hours ago! It would explain a lot.
Journey before destination…
Perhaps people need to take a step back and realize we are discussing a work of fiction.
While that does not preclude people identifying closely with a character (or more than 1 character), the fact that some of the readers do not appreciate those same characters as much as others is not a reflection towards the people who identify with their arc or challenges (and who may, themselves, be dealing with similar challenges).
I will be the first to admit that Kaladin is not my favourite character, even if there are aspects of this character I understand on a personal level. But I do feel his story is true, and to make it go away with “magic” would be an injustice to all the readers.
Commenting or criticizing a character in a book is about the character, not about people reading the book, even if they identify with that character on a significant and meaningful level.
For the most part, this is a pretty good community.
Let’s not allow toxicity to seep in.
@ Isilel, 94
I actually don’t think that any Windrunners would die in the timeskip, if only because I feel like Brandon would want to show us the first Radiant death onscreen.
As for the human savior theme, I really hope not. I keep thinking Disney’s John Smith now that you mentioned that (lol), but I’m pretty sure Venli wouldn’t allow that! I do hope that something special is in store for Rlain though. If Brandon had followed that trope, I’d imagine that we’d have seen more of Rlain in Oathbringer.
So lot of differing opinions on depression and DID. Going to first and foremost say people can have whatever opinions they wish and want whatever they want and say it whenever and however they wish. Just thought to add some context.
Brandon has said that the point of the stormlight archive is to give those that are neuro-atypical a voice. That too often the hero of the story is neuro normative. For the author, he wants neuro-atypical people to know that they too can be the hero of their own story. That the way he is doing it is not glossing over its effect while also not having it define the character. All of these examples of neuro-atypical (depression, DID, alcoholism, autism, etc) are life long.
If the authors goal is to represent these accurately and respectfully (which from his own mouth it is), and that is the focus/point of the novels (again which from his own mouth it is), then love it or hate it in any way shape or form you like, I really dont see it going away anytime soon if at all.
So I guess we are left with those that enjoy it, continue to do so. Those that don’t, totally respect your opinions and your entitlement to have them, but I really dont see how you will ultimately get what you want. I just hope your enjoyment of the other aspects of the book will out weight your dislike of it.
(Side note so i dont get crucified. I have in no way shape or form have stated you are not allowed to have and voice your opinion. By all means have it. Just i personally dont see the point in hoping for something that we have been confirmed wont happen)
Just had a thought.
We’ve seen Fused in Shadesmar. If Dalinar keeps opening perpendicularies, that gives them an amazing opportunity to set up a battle, preposition a strike force (or an army!) in Shadesmar, then leap through the opened Perpendicularity and start hitting Team Radiant from their back lines.
Dangerous oversight by the Blackthorn.
Humans with artificial gemhearts is something Aesudan and Amaram tried.
The boring part of Kaladin is the superhero fights, not the depression. Why are stupid duels between nearly unkillable people where only the bystanders and the parsh who’s body the Fused steal die better than Lirin’s pacifism? Lirin is actually helping people as a surgeon, not accidentally killing them in a pointless duel.
@81
It’s not just “wah, these people don’t like my favorite character” (Kaladin isn’t, actually, even if he’s the most relatable. Shallan is my favorite.) The commenter right after you (dashardie) really said better than I could why I was hurt by previous comments.
As for my comment, for the awareness part, if people had been aware of the likely reaction their comments would cause, or what it would mean to people who suffered from depression, they hopefully would have not said such a thing or would have worded it differently. If I didn’t assume ignorance, I would have to assume apathy or maliciousness, and I naturally went with the more charitable option.
And the empathy thing is tied closely to that, because if they were empathetic, they would have been aware of how it would sound, see? If they were empathetic, they would have seen what dashardie did. (And to be clear, I am talking about empathy in this specific situation, not in general. I am not claiming they have no empathy whatsoever in any situation). So yes, I hear myself, and after further thought still consider what I said to be accurate. The alternative is that people are either apathetic or actively malicious, which is worse. And blame? That is too strong a word for the observation I made. Nowhere did I assign culpability for lack of empathy-which can have a myriad of causes, not all of which are under a person’s control. However, given your aggression (which I had not accused anyone of being) and your assumption of my ill intent I cannot be sorry in this situation for stating what I observe. I have apologized plenty to people in my life who cared less for my feelings than I cared about the relationship, but I have no such considerations here for a stranger in the face of such hostility.
@85 Gepeto I looked back at the comments and I’m not seeing where anyone insinuated that you would treat people who have depression in real life badly.
Kaladin’s depression isn’t a “theme.” If anything, his theme would be determination. Character struggles aren’t themes-they reveal what the themes are in opposition. Like Dalinar’s struggles with guilt led into the theme of growth and redemption.
If you dislike reading about Kaladin, one of the main characters, and his depression that adamantly, well, all I can do is shake my head really. I’m not going to try to convince you otherwise at this point.
I’m not going to comment on the rest of your post because it feels too much like a minefield.
@88 anomander – You are absolutely right that readers are allowed to have their opinions, and that comments trying to shut them down are not appropriate or conducive to the overall conversation. I was not trying to attack anyone or shut anyone down, so I apologise for the tone of my comment – I could have expressed my thoughts more clearly, and I also clearly misread some of the previous comments.
@95 – well said
@94 & 96 – by Windrunners, do you mean Radiant Windrunners? I find it’s confusing sometimes because the text doesn’t always distinguish between a Squire and a Radiant when discussing the Order as a group. I agree with @Keyblazing that the first Radiant death will probably be done on-screen, but perhaps Squires have been lost? Hopefully we will find out more about what’s happened in the timeskip in later chapters
I have a feeling leshwi is going to kill sigzil and kal is going to blame himself for not being good enough. Lirin will finally support his son’s career choice and will give ‘growing callouses’ advice. Roshone will apologize for being a jerk. Kal eventually acknowledges roshone has become a good boy.
Meanwhile fused are going to keep raiding the airship and increasing their number throughout the journey and dalinar will be tired bcz of constantly opening perpendicularity. So at one point radiants are forced to face overwhelming enemies without any stormlight backup and when it seems they almost lost kaladin will finally let go of his guilt and swears 4th ideal and goes boom. Radiants with fully recharged kaladin in a shardplate push back the attack and wins the day for team radiant.
Ok I spent a long time composing my last post and did not see any of the comment from 86 onward before posting. I’m going to back off and say I’m stepping out of this discussion (or at least this topic in the discussion) because I don’t want to add any more fuel to a fire. I really appreciate @93 xanderwatts post and @97 scaths post.
And to anomander I can actually relate to wanting to see more of the Orders than just Windrunners, so I understand you there.
re: the fused’s metal spears blocking shardblades, i just ran across this, from oathbringer, cp 100
Glad for the distraction, Dalinar took the shield, hefting it. “Half-shard?” he said, noting a steel box—with a gemstone inside—fastened to the inner surface.
“Indeed,” Taravangian said. “Crude devices. There are legends of metal that can block a Shardblade. A metal that falls from the sky. Silver, but somehow lighter. I should like to see that, but for now we can use these.”
@94 That’s an interesting take in thinking Kaladin will become Honor. I’ve been thinking that Dalinar will.
Given that Odium’s immediate reaction to Dalinar bringing together the three realms in Oathbringer was “WE KILLED YOU!” I thought that was pretty clearly setting Dalinar up to be Honor’s successor.
scath@47 – I’m still not sure about Red being a Radiant. As far as I can tell, he was a darkeyes to begin with, so he wasn’t employing Illumination to infiltrate the SoH. There is no reason why Shallan wouldn’t send in one of her trusted crew to spy on SoH, because it is highly unlikely that they would be recognizable. When it became clear that they needed someone noteworthy to infiltrate the higher levels of SoH, then it makes sense to send in a Lightweaver to impersonate someone they think might be important enough to meet Ialai. Added bonus, if Red is a squire (which we currently have as much reason/if not more to believe is true as him being a Radiant) then once Shallan infiltrates the SoH she has instant backup if she needs it.
@58 – Re: F*** Moash – speaking for myself, I have no intention of dropping it as my dislike for Moash stems from his specific actions. His despicableness was very personal: he betrayed the man who helped redeem him, train him, uplift him and even gave him priceless artifacts that raised him just short of royalty. Not only did he betray Kaladin, he tried to kill him with those very same priceless artifacts when he thought Kaladin was weak, then ran when Kaladin was strong enough to resist him. Which made him a traitorous coward. He removed the priceless artifacts from the princedom they were now associated with, making him a thieving traitorous coward. He joined the Voidbringers (not because he made a difficult decision after reflecting on the plight of the Singers/parshmen in relation to millennia of mistreatment by the human intruders/oppressors, but because he just didn’t care about anything anymore), which made him a worthless thieving (2x)-traitorous coward. And he murdered his former king when said king was on the ground holding his scared, traumatized 3 year old child. Which makes Moash a child-traumatizing cowardly worthless thieving (2x)-traitorous regicide piece of s***. (Who after all that then went ahead and killed a drunk, defenseless beggar looking man, who just also happened to be Jezrien…)
So I have no problem stating F***Moash and #noredemption. But I respect your right to not agree with those sentiments and to support a redemption arc for him. And honestly, I would not be surprised in the least if Brandon does set some long-term redemption arc in Book 5 or 10, because that would fit one of the themes of the Stormlight Archives. I’m just saying that if it were up to me, I would let him rot in whatever hell-like analogue the Cosmere has.
@60 – Thank you for your interest in my missing post. As the moderator@69 stated, I had no reason to believe the issue was the content of my post, as technical glitches arose almost immediately, and repeated itself on other attempts. To your concerns about being spoiled (which is ironic, as this is a spoiler article of RoW about another spoiler article of RoW, with all the comments themselves likely including spoilers of RoW), there is always the option of just not reading the comment (hence the warning at the top). Oh, and I like your screen name, totally had me smile.
@72 & 73 – Thanks for clarifying policy.
@97 – Well said, sir.
@104 we have a WOB about the “falling metal from the sky”. I’m not sure how to white it out so I’m going to just post the link, look at it if you would like
https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/63672-ob-metal-that-falls-from-the-sky/#comment-655097
I’m really interested in Cord. I became curious about her after reading the ROW interlude in Brandon’s last newsletter, so I went back and read Rock’s chapter in Oathbringer to find out more about her. She and her twin brother (Gift) are Rock’s oldest children. They were 16 when they arrived in the Shattered Plains, so would be 17 now. They are the only two of his kids to speak “lowlander languages.” It’s clear in that chapter that Rock’s wife is an archer, so I would guess that Cord learned the skill from her. I love that the Horneater women fight with no problem. Since Cord’s shardplate is from Aimia, I’m guessing that she’ll accompany Rysn (and possibly Lopen) to Aimia in the Dawnshard novella, which makes me super excited to read it. I also wonder if Gift received Amaram’s (aka Helaran’s) shardblade and plate.
Regarding the lively character discussion above, I’ll put in a little love for Kaladin’s chapters. He is my favorite character and I am always happy to read his story. I can’t logically say why he’s my favorite, other than I tend to latch onto characters who follow the hero’s journey archetype, even if they follow tropes that can be bland or boring to many readers (for example Rand is my favorite character in WOT and I know most people dislike him or find him boring). That said, I don’t feel like Kaladin is the typical hero character, mostly because of his depression, self-doubt, and ongoing moral dilemma around “us vs. them.” I enjoy reading his constant questioning of how to do the right thing, having empathy for both sides of the conflict, and whether one can kill to protect. For the depression, I’ve never experienced it myself but I feel empathy for what Kaladin is going through and want him to find some sort of peace in his life. The long duration of his depression will only make it sweeter when he eventually does find peace. Going back to the WOT comparison, think of how many books we went through before we reached THAT chapter for Rand. Hopefully it won’t take Kaladin that long. I can understand it’s not everyone’s favorite thing to read though. Each reader has the characters they relate to for a variety of reasons and that’s what makes our discussions so interesting.
I am not trying to add fire to the fuel or be toxic but i would like to give my 2cents about the topic of kaladin’s depression in interest of a healthy discussion.
I personally am not enjoying kaladin’s perspective. Kaladin seems to me to be a person suffering from depression and PTSD and brandon has done a great job of portraying those issue on paper. People facing similar issues being happy over the representation is a great thing and i fully agree with the sentiment. But personally as someone who is blessed enough to not have to face these issues the perspective is not very enjoyable. These mental issues are not healthy states of mind. It is a disease. Infact i believe it is healthy for me to not enjoy living in the headspace of some suffering from depression and PTSD. That brandon has managed to represent them well enough is a testament to his skill as a writer. My feelings however do not mean that i lack empathy, nor am i trying to be dismissive about people who see themselves in kaladin. I do see that veiwing posts that state kaladin as boring can feel dismissive of these issues to the some people but i do not believe that was the intent of the posts.
To reiterate the main point i am trying to make. That it is healthy and natural for people who do not suffer from mental disorders to not enjoy living in the headspace of someone who does. That does not mean that they are being dismissive or unempathetic towards the issues and those who are strugelling against them.
I’m going to attempt to put words in people’s mouths regarding the Kaladin hate. This is just my interpretation from the comments, feel free to disagree.
First off let me say that I do find Kaladin chapters fulfilling if not always enjoyable. And I believe he has broad spectrum appeal across the Fandom. Why? Because of the payoffs. He gets knocked over time after time, sometimes due to his own actions and some due to actions of others, but at the end we get some of the most epic scenes not only in the series but arguably in all of fantasy. Coming back for Dalinar, she smiled anyway, stretch forth thy hand, the winds are mine, honor is dead but I’ll see what I can do, I mean truly epic moments. But in OB he ceased to be a typical fantasy protagonist because he began to fail in these epic moments. We build up and build up to his MOA, typical just like the last 2 books, but the pattern gets broken. He freezes instead of saving Elokhar. He fails to say the 4th Ideal. He gets bailed out when fighting Amaram. He even loses the shipping war.
The point is that we push through the slog that is Kaladin’s emotional state knowing that we’ll be rewarded with greatness, but in OB he couldn’t overcome. Now we’re here, a year after his most crushing failures, and not only has he not gotten over it but it seems he has even more emotional turmoil. People are naturally a bit skittish about going in for another round of Kaladin angst when we’re unsure we will get a satisfactory payoff. Shallan’s arc suffers from this too, albeit to a lesser extent. We get a bit skittish about her Moments of Awesome because her triumphs seem to break her more and more. For those that suffer from the issues our characters are going through even the lows of these characters are satisfying because they can identify with the struggles. It’s harder to empathize when you’re not in that mindstate.
But of course therin lies the dilemma. If Brandon doesn’t show the struggles then it lessens the impact of the payoff. We’d be crying Deus Ex Machina or something close. We’d be saying these guys are Mary Sue-ing through these pages, the complaint I often see regarding Adolin. For SA, the struggles make the story. Have whatever opinions you’d like but I’m not sure you actually want what you’re asking for. I don’t think you really want Kaladin’s struggles to be less pronounced or for Shallan’s DID to be magically healed. Dalinar was boring until we got his murderous backstory. There are people who still gripe about Amaram and his limited storyline. If a plot line doesn’t work for you then fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion and the discussions and differing perspectives enrich the reading experience. I would just caution everyone not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Starkindler @100. You said “If you dislike reading about Kaladin, one of the main characters, and his depression that adamantly, well, all I can do is shake my head really. I’m not going to try to convince you otherwise at this point.”
If you point is “I am shaking my head because I cannot convince you; I tried my best to convince you that you should like Kaladin but oh well, nothing more I can do”, then so be it.
If, on the other hand, you really meant “I am shaking my head because you have no empathy and you, as a person, are missing something because you cannot see the greatness of Kaladin as a literary character,” that is a problem. You are being judgmental; so much so that if anybody who has a difference of opinion than you do in their view of Kaladin is a lesser person. In that case, I suggest you stop reading people’s comments on the Tor SA re-read as it will just upset you. There are bound to be people who disagree with you.
I will leave it to you to decide how you meant the statement I quoted above to be interpreted.
KiManiak @107. Excellent summary of Moash. I agree that Moash is less than the slime under the foot of a Chull
(As an aside, do Chulls have feet or hooves?)
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@72 and 72: Sorry about that, and thank you for clarifying the policy.
@106: I’m still wondering what Odium meant with that “we”
@109: I’m interested in Cord too, and I hope she does show up in Dawnshard.
@112
I meant it as the former, which I thought was clear from stating that gepeto’s position seemed adamant and I wasn’t going to try to change his or her mind.
Also you saying “I will leave it to you to decide how you meant the statement I quoted above to be interpreted“ is a really weird way of wording that, as though I’m going to retroactively decide my motivatons. I’m not; I already know what I was about.
@114: StarKindler. Given the fact more than one reader has expressed a similar opinion to my own, I would appreciate not being singled-out. I appreciate you clarifying your statement because I did interpret it as a condescending negative wave of the head. I understand this was not your intention and I accept your explanation it wasn’t. This, however, illustrates why it isn’t a great idea to attempt at making those conversations more personal than they should be. This is the perfect example of a comment read in a manner contradicting its intend. I’ll admit I did make it personal myself, but I did it in response to several comments insinuating individuals being less convinced by Kaladin’s narrative lacked empathy. I am not saying you personally said nor insinuated those comments, but they have come across in this threads: more than one reader has commented on them. Those comments are what prompt me to write mine.
I also need to point out I express my thoughts and feelings on a chapter by chapter basis. The fact I am currently feeling a Kaladin fatigue does not mean I will not enjoy the rest of his narrative nor that I hate his character nor any other bold statement. It just means, right now, I am wishing to spend more time with other characters. I want to read what will happen to Shallan, what Navani thinks, how will Adolin’s timely rescue mission go down. Kaladin isn’t just that interesting to me right now, but that doesn’t mean he won’t be at a later point in time.
Those opinions are not static, they evolve, they change. On a week by week basis and a lot of mines is influenced by stuff I read elsewhere.
This being said, I think enough was said on the topic. No harm feelings, I am not mad nor angry nor anything. I just want the conversation to continue as it is meant to.
@115 Gepeto
Fair enough, and I agree that it would be nice to move on from this topic. It has been going on for quite awhile now.
@113 Nina
Same, clearly Odium must have had help killing Honor, but from whom? (Dun dun DUN!) I’m thinking that maaaybe the knife Moash used to kill the Herald at the end of Oathbringer had something to do with it.
Isilel@84
I did notice the tendency of Kaladin “usupring” other characters books.
His ascension to Honor would be a narraive disaster (mostly because there’s no foreshadowing, I don’t know where did you see any). Brandon is a professional writer and should understand it.
WARNING SPOILERS FOR OTHER COSMERE BOOKS!
Re: voidlight
All dark light draws in seeking to remain inside, opposite of good light which seeks to escape back into the world. We see another incident of this in the Elantris Post Script with Hoid.
He turned to regard his companion: a hovering dark sphere, about the size of a melon. It somehow sucked in the light, and didn’t have distinct edges Hoid could make out—it just kind of blended out into the air, warping everything around it
The Radiants needing Spren feeds right into a theory I’ve had. That Adolin won’t bond with Maya (as per Brandon saying he wants some non-magic characters) due to her past traumas (him being more accepting of Kaladin’s PTSD would help him accept this), but will instead work with Dalinar to bring back the Dead-Eyes. Either allowing them to re-bond Radiants (possibly under a new oath constructed by Dalinar, according to the stormfather’s wishes) or giving the reluctant spren a reason to trust humans.
Son of Honor/Tanavast/Odium could be a referance to a chapter in the bible. “Blessed are the Peacemakers, for they shall be called the Sons of God” in that one, doing “God’s Work” was making peace. If Brandon is using a similar usage, being a “Son of Honor/Tanavast” would be living honorably, while at the same time living in hate would have him being a “Son of Odium”.
I love these discussions, well done both of you.
Re: comments 119-121: While we understand that this discussion is bringing up sensitive topics and strong feelings, let’s be clear: this is meant to be a discussion of the specific chapters released each week in which everyone should feel welcome to participate within the guidelines of the site’s moderation policy. If you’re unable to participate in this conversation without making your comments personal in tone or taking comments about characters so personally that the conversation becomes a series of attacks and arguments, then you may want to move on and discuss the text in another forum. For everyone keeping things in perspective and remaining civil, even while disagreeing, thank you, and let’s all move on.
During the fight with the heavenly ones there is no mention of casualties. This is just one fight scene and you can’t extrapolate from that to the larger picture of the war, but from our own wars here we have many examples of Wars of attrition and the war on the shattered plains, maybe the fused are simply applying that concept. But we also have the unusual affiliation that wind runners attract larger than normal number of squires. Are they able to attract wind runners to supplement there lost number from these battles.
The humans have lost Herdaz, but it seems that that victory cost the singers a lot of ground troops, while the fused can come back you still need large ground forces to take and hold territory. what are the fused doing to either supplement their own forces with singers or are hums fighting with them now. What I’m going to be interested is the distribution of forces around Roshar. Whether the humans have lost more ground? Have they gained any ground? Or is it just a stalemate?
@@@@@59. Ladycallista,
Sorry for the late response, I missed that someone had responded to my comment. But you’re absolutely right, I forgot about those that left without changing into stormform. I hope we see them soon.
Still, I find Rlain one of the more interesting of Bridge 4 and I hope he gets some good development in this book. I’m interested to see how he’s developed in the last year.
Please see the moderation note @122 and let’s leave the personal gripes and animosity out of this conversation, and all subsequent conversations, in the interest of keeping things civil.
@92: KeyBlazing. I love discussing alternatives for the characters groupings in RoW. Now we have moved into Part 1, I believe we can make more educated guesses. Trusting this chart is still up to date (Brandon Sanderson could have changed the cart between his latest update and the final book as he did on OB, but let’s assume he did not for the shake of discussion), here are the groupings I believe we will read.
Group 1: Kaladin, Venli, Navani not necessarily in this order of importance, but I think those three are the main feature of the first group. I would put Lirin as the number four character and Lift as character number five, the one character getting only one interlude. I think their group will travel a lot and will not spend the book in the same location.
Group 2: Shallan and Adolin. Adolin does not get viewpoints in Part 1, but he seems like the logical pick here. He’ll likely get viewpoints in the next part involving his arc, I hope. Their arc will involved SoH and, later, Shadesmar.
Group 3: Dalinar and Szeth. Group 3 characters can be involved within group 1 without getting viewpoints so this fits with Dalinar’s current role. Szeth’s whereabouts are still unknown, but I see those two bring grouped.
None of this is fixed. What I am mostly convinced about is Group 1 first four characters Group 2 and Dalinar being in Group 3.
@94: I had not thought on how low the casualties seemed to have been so thank you for bringing this up. I have to agree. One year of fighting and no one died? Not even one squire? No Radiants? Warfare is supposed to brutal, bloody, but if no one bites the dust, then the Desolation suddenly morphs into a flying game where Windrunners lash from one end of the sky to the next. I don’t find it realistic the Fused have failed to take one just one Windrunner within a full year. This doesn’t increase the feeling of urgency nor the stakes.
Speaking of realism, am I the only one bothered by the fact every single bridgemen became either a Windrunner or a Windrunner in training? Shouldn’t such a disparate group of people arbor sufficient personality types and individuals to have representants within more than one order? And why should all members of Bridge 4, all bridgemen and their friends be all suitable to become Knights and Windrunners? Why aren’t there those who aren’t suitable? Those simply not having the right personality for Radianhood? How did they all turn out being Honor oriented to the point of bonding Honorsprens, one of the most rigid and rigorous order?
This truly puts more water to my never-ending questioning as to why Adolin and Navani haven’t been picked up buy sprens just yet. This really needs to be broached in light of knowing basically every soldier having spent more than two minutes with Kaladin became a Knight and those who didn’t, couldn’t due to a lack of Honorsprens.
@122: Thank you for putting an end to it. BIG thank you.
@93, xanderwatts:
Not anyone’s actual position, of course.
Let me say (without spoilers) that the previews give me reason to think I’ll like later chapters on this theme more.
@109, Artemis:
Is it worth mentioning that Rock is also an archer?
I’m guessing that holdout Spren is waiting for RLain. He is also prime, in my mind, for assisting Venli at some point. I want those missing Singers to return and Rlain would be a likely leader. Maybe he went looking for them.
I’m still not sure about Roshone. He does seem to be “reformed” but it dosen’t feel right and those prisoners must be very special.
How the heck do you pronounce Ialai? I said in the Otherbringer reread that I expected her to be bad and be back. She is intelligent, sneaky and driven. Mraise, for whatever reason, was already watching her.
I was expecting to hear more fallout from Dalinar’s book but maybe it’s had a very limited readership or we just haven’t been around enough non-soldiers to hear it yet.
The gems on the Fused spears seem an answer to Navani’s problem but I haven’t seen any mention of them being collected or taken when a Fused is killed.
At first I thought Kaladin wounding the Fused so he couldn’t fight could turn out to be a way to reduce their forces, but I could also see Odium killing a useless Fused to bring back a healthy warrior.
I don’t recall who mentioned it but yeah, Leshwi and Kaladin seem very interested in each other, more than just as enemies.
@128: goddessimho. My gut feeling, upon reading the first chapters, is Dalinar hasn’t read/shared his book yet. If he had, I would have expected others to be iffy around him, especially Windrunners. Granted, my gut feeling could be totally off, but my personal opinion, right now, is this has yet to pass.
I suspect we’ll know more in Part 2 or late Part 1 once all the characters get grouped again, before splitting up again. I do think we’ll at least one Urithiru scene where they are all grouped together.
So my personal speculation is we haven’t read this aftermath yet because the truth hasn’t come out yet.
@127 Carl
But Rock was also away from his kids for … I’m not actually certain how long. And then we’re not certain on the timing of when he became the cook in his family, and he may not have trained his kids because of that. (Although he also may’ve given that he was fine using a bow as long as he wasn’t hurting anyone in the first book, when he shot the pouch of spheres into the underside of the bridge)
So maybe he trained her, maybe his wife did, or maybe they both did at various points.
@129 Gepeto – I agree, I also think Dalinar hasn’t shared his book yet. The way I read the ending of Oathbringer was that he spent the one-year time skip learning how to read and write, and was starting to write the book at the end. Part One could very well end with him revealing the book, I could see that being an excellent cliff hanger to end on; or as you say in Part Two it could be revealed. Really looking forward to the fallout from it, though, regardless how it happens!
@128 – You aren’t the only one speculating Rlain went looking for the missing Listeners! I think its the most likely explanation of his absence through Oathbringer
@126, Gepeto:
Interesting list! I agree on group 3. While I agree that Adolin should be in group 2, I keep thinking that Brandon would want to revisit the Shallan/Jasnah relationship. Anything related to Maya is also more spren-related for me, so that would have to go in group 1.
I think it would be more like this for me:
Group 1: Kaladin, Rlain, Lift, Venli, Adolin: Spren plot
Group 2: Shallan, Jasnah: Secret organisations plot
Group 3: Dalinar, Szeth: Shin plot
@131: dashardie – I will admit there is some amount of wishful thinking happening here as I badly want to read the scene where Dalinar tells Adolin the truth. The fact the narrative currently implies it hasn’t happened makes me hope we will. The fact Dalinar and Adolin are far from each other, but would likely meet up before Adolin gets sent to Shadesmar gives credence to those hopes. Adolin could have viewpoints in Part 2, we know Dalinar doesn’t, so I am crossing my fingers I’ll get to read this scene from Adolin’s viewpoint.
@132: Keyblazing – I have very good reasons to believe Adolin is grouped with Shallan as opposed to Jasnah. I do not know if I can share it here or if it is spoilers. There have also been clues as to what they might be doing in the book. I dunno if all have seen it or want to hear it, so I will wait before posting it.
I love your group 3, this was my first pick. I think this arc will be “training ground” for book 5: it will set the future narrative which is why we won’t see much of Dalinar or Szeth in RoW.
As for group 1, well, you are forgetting Navani! She is the main character of RoW, so she is definitely there. And Lirin. His name comes onto Part 1 title page, so he has to be there. In my grouping, I think we could easily swap Lift for Rlain, but my gut feeling is Rlain will be an interlude character. Fingers crossed. He’d have more page time this way, I think. Jasnah could also be a character there too, those last two spots are very hard to pinpoint to.
@goddessimho, I pronounce Ialai as “aye ah lie”. And that’s certainly not how the Aleshi pronounce it, because it’s not symmetrical.
@@@@@ 126 Gepeto
I think the answer here is that the spren are individuals and make their own choices. Does Rua seem like a ‘rigid and rigorous’ spren? I think it’s a mistake to get trapped into thinking that all spren must align exactly with the concept they embody. What makes true spren different from sub spren is their ability to choose to some extent, just as humans have free will to a certain extent. The spren who bonded the bridgemen likely saw that the Ancient Daughter had done it successfully, and saw that these men all became connected through Kaladin to each other and to the Ideals, and decided that they wanted to create the Nahel bond with them. Maybe some of the men could have also bonded a different type of spren, but the honorspren were the ones who were there, and Kaladin was already a Windrunner so things panned in that direction. The Windrunners are uniquely structured to allow groups to become part of the Order en masse as well so it makes sense to me.
goddessimho @128, Carl @134: I pronounce it “ee-ah-LAH-ee”, but we should probably be asking someone who has listened to the audiobook version. :-)
About Adolin intervention. Wouldn’t it be possible to use some sort of Fabrial as a kind signal? Make it blink if she was in some kind of trouble or something. She could even disguise it, usigng lightweaving, as a non-copious object such a pen.
@28 I was also thinking why there wasn’t any mention about Restares. I remember Mraize talking about him being the leader of the Sons of Honors to Shalam during WOR. Even if he/she lost control to the Sons of Honors to Ialai it is very strange that Shalam didn’t mention him at all.
I’m not sure about the audiobook, but Graphic Audio pronounces Ialai as “ee-lay.” At least, that’s what I remember because I was curios too.
I think Leshwi is mostly interested in Kaladin because of ****ing Moash, who, I expect, will be showing up soon with his new Jezrian blade to mess with Kaladin.
I pronounce Ialai’s name “ee AH lie.” Technically, the pronunciation of the vowels in “lie” in English is a short dipthong of the sounds “ah” and “ee,” making the name symmetrical.
The audiobook (Kramer & Reading version) pronounce Ialai as “ee – uh – lie” with the accent on the third syllable. It bothers me a bit that it is not symmetrical, but it is easier to say than “eye – uh – lie.”
Carl @127, StarKindler @130 sums up my thoughts about Cord’s archery skills. Rock seems to have “laid down the bow” in the past. It is my understanding that he was once the warrior (fourth brother?) in his family but at some point before he came to Alethkar one of his brothers died and he moved from being a fighter to a cook. We don’t know the timeline so perhaps he trained Cord before that happened. But I like the idea of her mom training her, and both of them fighting when Rock will not.
Also, the general thinking is that Rock’s other two brothers died after they came to Alethkar, which now makes Rock the first brother and possible Nuatoma of his clan. If this is the case, does that make Cord and her sisters real Horneater Princesses? That would be pretty funny.
I say /ja.la͜ɪ/, but it’s probably supposed to be /ɪ.a.la͜ɪ/ (that’s IPA, not English pronounciation).
They just need more Voidlight to heal. We don’t know how they “recharge”, but there must be some way, at least in the Everstorm, maybe also with gems like Stormlight.
@106, 113, 116 re: Odium’s comment when Dalinar united the realms
I also first assumed Odium’s referred to Dalinar partially taking on the role of Honor, and that interpretation still makes a lot of sense. The new info on these chapters about Dalinar being able to recreate the perpendicularity at will as part of his powers as the Stormfather’s bondsmith at least partially points to that as well.
I also think a lot of little things point to a different possibility as well. As someone pointed out, the “we” in his killing Honor didn’t make a lot of sense. I have had some thoughts that maybe Cultivation helped in some sort of long-game, “only way to win in the end,” but there is no indication of that in the visions or in what we know of Odium’s past solo attacks on shards. There is, however, another deity he helped kill as part of a group.
Odium seemed scared and left the battlefield. The tone of his reaction seemed like much more than just shock that Honor’s shard could be possessed again. He presumably understands the mechanics of shards gaining a new person/host. As I understand it, he broke up the shards of Elantris and Honor into bits (I know there is a technical term I am forgetting—splinters maybe?) to prevent someone easily reassuming the role and rather than assuming their powers himself. I imagine he knows of Harmony’s ascension. So the depth of the reaction seems more like fear than just surprise. Who would scare or intimidate Odium? In don’t think another shard would. Kaladin says in Chapter 5 that the Fused are afraid of Dalinar for mysterious reasons, which I think reflects information from and/or connection to Odium’s fear.
It seems like renewing the stormlight in a perpendicularity or a storm comes from the cognitive realm – that moment Kaladin meets the Stormfather various times – and then emerges with the spheres renewed. I am not near my books presently, but the language during that huge moment at the end of OB says that all three realms were brought into alignment/unity. Did past perpendicularities of Honor or Cultivation also include the spiritual realm connection or just the connection/passageway to the cognitive? The info in Arcanum Unbounded and Mistborn: Secret History regarding the perpendicularities seems to also show it as more of a physical-cognitive connection.
So all of that is a long way of theorizing that in the moment Dalinar became some better self and created the “enormous pillar of radiance,” fusing the spiritual realm as well as the other two realms, in that moment of conflict with Odium in OB, he somehow assumed the essence/cognitive shadow/lasting-power-even-beyond-shattering/something of Adonalsium, not just Honor. That would explain Odium’s reaction much better in my mind. And Dalinar’s whole complicated character and past would seem to match the complicated character of Adonalsium, who had Odium and Ruin as part of his being along with Honor and Cultivation.
Was this a typo?
“They couldn’t risk another incident like Amaram’s betrayal, which had cost thousands of lives.”
Is it supposed to say Sadeus’s betrayal instead? Referring to Sadeus’s betrayal at the end of book 1 that cost like 4000-6000 of Dalinar’s man, and 3 of Kaladin’s bridgemen?
Amaram’s army switched to Odium at Thaylen City.
Kaladin has been my favourite character from the start and I do ship him with Leshwi now :)
@143, Patillian:
Remember, that is new. The Stormfather is surprised the first time Dalinar does that. And then Dalinar outright says that they (Stormfather and Dalinar) are something new, not just another Bondsmith. Stormfather knew many Bondsmiths before the Recreance, he wouldn’t be surprised by standard abilities of those Radiants.
The power (Investiture) comes from the Spiritual Realm, but a Perpendicularity by definition links all three realms, as you say. Notice that when the Away Team are in Shadesmar, the truespren desperately want Stormlight. That wouldn’t be the case if it came from their realm.
Jeez Kal and Leshwi. Get a room already!
I’ve been thinking about our favorite Horneater family and what we’ve seen so far, and I think it’s noteworthy that we see Cord fighting the Fused in Shardplate (that she finds in Aimia!; can’t wait to read about that in Dawnshard), contrasted with Rock still not fighting, and his Shardplate/Blade are nowhere in sight.
So what has Rock done with them? Did he give them to Gift (Cord’s twin brother)? Or to Song (Rock’s wife)? Or split up the Plate/Blade between the two? Are the Shards and their user(s) designated to stay in Urithuru to help defend it and/or be deployed to any region where they are needed? Or are they at the Horneater Peaks, dealing with whatever Song said was “very wrong” over there?
It doesn’t look like we’re going to get that Rock/Horneater novella anytime soon (it turns out Brandon can only do the writing output of 10 men and not 15; go figure), so I’m curious to see if the Horneater Peak storyline will get a lot of focus in RoW, or just a brief look, like an Interlude or something.
Also, thinking about Rock’s Shards have me wondering about the other Shards that are out there. The Alethi have several, both in Urithuru and the Shattered Plains camps. With the influx of dozens of Radiants, I wonder if we’ll see onscreen what role the “dead” Shards play now? Are those Shardbearers basically treated as after thoughts? Still better than regular troops, but nowhere near Radiant level of weaponry?
Also, it appears that the Fused/Singers have also acquired some Shards (Eshonai’s, Moash’s, Grave’s, miscellaneous Shards claimed in the conquering of Alethkar, etc). I wonder if we’ll see how those are deployed on screen. Are they granted to Singers that display marital prowess? Or are they given to certain Fused, to augment their capabilities? Or (crazy theory that I’m not sure I believe) could the Fused take the Blades back to Shadesmar and use the corpses of the bonding-spren as some type of hostage-like threat or intimidation against the other spren to encourage those spren to not bond with humans (or else)?
Anyway, a number of loose ends related to Shards out there that I hope Brandon has the time to address in RoW.
me@149 – “marital prowess”? Ha! I’m going to leave that slip in there! (Btw, I meant “martial prowess”)
I wonder if the spren bonding limit has anything to do with Kal’s depression. Remember Syl said honor is subjective; whatever’s bothering Kal might be preventing further downstream spren bonding. And if it has something to do with failing to protect everyone, that would dovetail with the theories about the 4th ideal and would make a great climactic point.
@149
I’m also looking forward to getting answers to my many questions about shards. The focus seems to have shifted off of them entirely since Adolin’s tournament win. I believe that is intentional, as we have gotten tidbits but no real clarity on origin of plate and potential future of the dead spren blades. I’m hoping RoW leads to at least one of our Radiants reaching plate level.
BTW, if marital prowess leads to shards, I should def have mine by now :)
Thank you so much for your discussion about the rightful queen. You are right: Ialai is not the rightful queen at all. But do you know who does have a better claim than either Navani or Jasnah? And whose death has so far not been confirmed? Aesudan Kholin. Either she somehow survived “being consumed” by Yelig-nar’s power and is now leading the Ghostbloods, or someone (maybe Ialai) is pretending to speak for her. It could even be that Ialai is using her.
@152
Well, there’s evidence in the books that Jasnah has had a Plate for quite some time now. So, at least one of “our” Radiants has it. :)
Gepeto @126:
Indeed, I hoped for more Radiant spren diversity among the Bridge 4 members. Sanderson did say that he had purposely designed the Orders so that most people could fit into more than one and it makes sense that their common experiences and admiration for Kaladin would have strongly molded them, but still… I hold out hope that Rock and Rlain will break the pattern. I thought the same about Sigzil too, though.
I have protested in the past that Dalinar learning to read and write _and_ finishing his book by the end of OB was ridiculously unbelievable. And yes, IMHO him fessing up about Rathalas to his sons _needs_ to happen on-sceen. It would be unbelievably cruel to just spring it on them through a published book!
KiManiak @149:
I fully expect the dead shards to play a big role in upsetting historical balance of forces. In that most of the missing high hundreds – low thousands of post-Recreance shards will end up with the Fused and the Regals. From what I have seen so far all the combat-oriented Fused would profit a lot from shardblades and the teleportation Fused would become particularly deadly, as they’d finally get around the limitation of transporting weapons. Shardplate may have more undesirable restrictions, but a burly Regal in one would be formidable.
There was also an interesting theory (not mine) that Glys is a former deadblade, healed with Odium’s investiture. If so, th implications could be terrifying.
I would like to know more about the Voidlight before I make any assumptions about how the Fused hold it. How is it made? We know that Stormlight is made when the three realms meet, and the storm does that. Does the Everstorm do anything like that? Can it be stored in gems, is there a specific one unlike regular spheres because when Kaladin left his spheres out they did not get infused with anything? Once we know some of these things I think it will be easier to find out how the fused hold the Voidlight.
[The first part I wrote after reading the chapter but it’s my first impression before the post/comments]
Ooooh, so now we see Gavilar was perhaps playing both sides with his secret societies. I also wonder if there’s a potential that the Sons of Honor are bluffing about having another contact…still, the plot thickens!
So…am I the only one that kind of ships Kaladin/Leshwi? Is that bad/Draco-in-Leather-Pants of me? Like, the second I read about Kaladin ‘hoping’ she’d be there I couldn’t help but wonder….and there’s something that could provide a lot of fun dramatic tension. I mean, I know the enemies/lovers thing is kind of a trope but also given that a previous chapter goes out of its way to talk about his failed romantic relationships…maybe that’s why it’s in my head. On the other hand…Fused probably aren’t great people, but on the OTHER other hand, these stories are always full of subverting those kinds of expectations about the ‘other’. Although I honestly don’t know how that works with Fused/parsh genders, although since apparently we DO know some Rosharan cultures have Singer blood…
(But okay, seriously, reading further along with the way he’s so keyed to her pattern, the way she holds herself, her hair, etc, she keeps coming up in his POV even after she’s long gone…now that I have this idea in my head I can’t stop reading the whole thing like a snarky romcom. I realize there are of coures plenty of other platonic ways they could have this somewhat mutually satisfying rivalry, but I think this is going to be my first loony Stormlight theory – the Kaleshwi ship. That said I’m totally aware that in the next chapter Leshwi could end up murdering his family or something, or perhaps a Moash connection, and THAT’S why she’s been set up with such prominence.)
[MaLink@66 (and 77/128/146/148)- HAH YES SOMEBODY ELSE SEES IT :D]
I’m actually really enjoying the way Brandon has done this timeskip but still releasing little dribs and drabs of info without feeling too expositiony, but also basically letting the plot progress in a speedy fashion. I want to know more about what Ash is teaching them though! And when did Cord get shardplate in Aimia?????
I like seeing Roshone’s development, strangely enough.
(After reading post/comments)
Regarding Shallan and her personas, they DO seem to be better integrated than in the past (and I imagine over the course of the books we’ll see more progress here, especially as she progresses in her ideals) but having JUST finished the Stephen Leeds stories…I am definitely getting a similar vibe about Shallan and her “aspects” that she has created to contain certain elements of her personality/skills.
Also I agree that there can certainly be redemption to Moash. I’m not saying we’ll see it – obviously not everybody gets redeemed and Moash has some huge blind spots when it comes to personal accountability – but I too sometimes get weary of the idea that Moash is the one character who is just somehow totally beyond redemption, especially when he actually has some extenuating circumstances that make his descent understandable.
[Includng this separately because I’m not sure if this is flirting with a banned topic or not ]
And regarding mental illness in general – I do sometimes find some of the comments dismissive, but there’s so much subjectivity to why you may or may not like a certain POV in the book. I kind of find Kaladin’s parts at times boring too because I’m actually really not that into the lashing/windrunning, etc. And depressed mind is NOT a pleasant place to be. But I do find some of the comments about how they are just moping, or that are impatient that they haven’t ‘fixed’ themselves yet, or that they are being ‘repetitive’. As somebody who has recurring depression/anxiety myself, I certainly hope none of my friends feel that way. Like it not, these are going to be long term fixtures of their personalities and it’s not a personality/character/moral flaw that they can’t just snap out of it. There ARE things they can do in terms of controlling their own thoughts, recognizing unhealthy patterns and actively working on it, but it won’t always be perfect and if they fail it’s not always out of laziness (although I also think it’s fair to point it out while analyzing the character), and of course mental illness doesn’t mean a person is beyond reproach either. Of course, it’s also fine to just not jibe with/like a character. There are definitely some beloved characters who just kinda grate on me due to personality conflicts.
Welp. That was… interesting. I’m mostly commenting to get this in my conversations, but also to record a giggle at the various predictions herein. So close, and yet so far! :D
RAFO!!
It’s ishar. Idk if that’s how you spell her name. She’s the spy, she knows too much immediately after Shallan sees Rock get stabbed. She’s the double agent
@160, Jared Henley: Ishar is one of the Heralds. Ishnah is Shallan’s espionage-expert would-be-Ghostblood follower.
I’m interested to see where the connections between the chapter heading notes about catching spren and the absence of honor spren is going… is it possible the humans have troves of the things captured in spheres waiting to be released and that’s why the free spren dislike the humans… Its super sad to think about. Also Navani is coming accross very manipulative and slightly shady in RoW … I can’t help she has known a lot more than she has let on based on her marriage with Gavinar…. as a female she would have been privy to so much information both before and AFTER Gavinar died… She also mentions Gavinars favourite meeting place was HER study… she’s smart enough to come up with a way to listen to some of those conversations in secret for sure!
Kalladan and Shallan both seem distracted in this chapter, their focus seems to be lost, they don’t see an end to this they seem almost crazy, the desolate plains seemed to have changed them and it seems like everyone has abilities and their identity seems compromised compared to the first 3 books.